Afraid so Trigger, they appear to fail more frequently by all accounts (I asked around the engine shops whilst looking for an STI engine to replace my UK lump, ended up with another UK lump). Presumably this is due to the higher rev limit/more enthusiastic driver combination placing more stress on the engine.

 

Damn....better be a bit more careful then !

 

Stef

I think you were very fortunate in getting the engine (& gearbox!) rebuilt under warranty considering the use you put your car to which is specifically excluded in your warranty agreement.

As John Felstead correctly states, the conditions experienced on a race track are different to those encountered on the road and using road cars on race circuits can lead to the problems you have suffered unless the car is specially prepared. That's why Subaru UK exclude such use in their warranty terms.

Several years ago we had engine failures on Group N Legacys during testing at MIRA. This was because you could experience conditions that you would not on a rally such as high revs, 1G cornering for long periods and subsequent oil starvation leading to turbo and engine damage.

Sounds suspiciously similar to the problems you now are suffering. Weren't you at Donington recently........?

I know this may not really help but I think it's worth suggesting that it may be time to look at improving your engines restance to oil surge.

Mike

 

Hmmmm all interesting stuff. I can only reiterate the bit about putting in decent oil.

Having had a VF22 turbo failure running Silkolene 5/40 I know all about it. I think turbo dynamics state in their warranty agreement that you must use 15/50, as other oil gets far too thin and/or breaks up after hard use

Never use anything like Catrol Magnetec stuff - I noted that this broke down after about 1000 miles! (after being told to change it by the local garage - cos they siad it was sh*t)

I also have noted on my car - sti5 that 4.5 litres of oil as recommended is far too low? - I put in about 4.8 litres

Plus I change the oil and filter about every 3000 miles

 

sounds good Tim, how are you going to control the temperature of the oil?

 

Can anybody tell me how much it would cost for a decent garage to replace either a piston or a short motor (parts and labour)?

 

No doubt I should know the answer to this, but does a Sti of the MY98 vintage have any of the same problems with number three bearing ?

 

For those interested in the truth or otherwise of non-availability of Castrol RS10W60, speak to Simon Lester at Woodford Garage, 01803 863958. He is a Castrol main agent and deals with them very closely, he'll know exactly what the position is.

Cheers
Rich

 

Mike,

That may well be that Stef is lucky to have had it repaired - but that's ignoring the issue that there most definitely is a problem with oil starvation on number 3.

It seems that the majority of affected cars have had it occur on the rods, not track.
Mine went on a motorway. You may say that it will be over-revving, or whatever - but these are sold as high performance cars - you would not get these issues on a Mondeo, Astra or probably any other everyday car.

A few maybe down to bad servicing - mine was done every 3.5k, oil was mobil motorsport.

There is a problem - there are no two ways about it. If it was purely surge, it would only happen on race tracks.

I think it would be more helpful to try and find the root cause, rather than blaming the track.

And anyway, if the track is so bad and frowned upon by IM, why take your demos round. Surely that gives the impression it is OK to do so?

No offence is meant in this if it sounds stroppy

 

Stef

I posted the following to Otis when he was having engine problems. It is a legal description of our rights in terms that we can understand:

"If you buy goods that are DEFECTIVE, FAULTY or wrongly described, the trader who sold them to you MUST pay for compensation or refund your money IN FULL if:

The goods do not match the seller’s description.

They are not of SATISFACTORY QUALITY.

The goods turn out not to be reasonably fit for the purpose for which they were bought.

"Satisfactory quality is a relative concept based on a reasonable person's expectations. You are entitled to expect a higher standard of finish and durability from a new car costing £20,000 than from a secondhand car costing £3,000. The term SATISFACTORY QUALITY was introduced in the Sale and Supply of Goods ACT 1994.

I think we can safely say that the engine was not of SATISFACTORY QUALITY seeing as it has only been 4 months.

Hope this helps

Mike

 

Sorry to hear about your engine Stef, if you do manage to get the engine rebuilt under warranty it might be worth paying for some strenghtened internals at the same time.

Mike, out of interest, and due to the amount of cars running on track, can Prodrive supply baffled sumps to us and if so how much?

Regards
Nito

 

The engine on my previous car, a UK 98 Impreza, blew up, but it was while it was on a rolling road being re-mapped, and was apparently caused by the tuner "pressing the wrong button". So probably not relevant to this discussion, but it *was* the number three piston that went though (I've still got the remains of it on my mantle piece as a momento).

Andy

[This message has been edited by AndyG (edited 22 November 2000).]

 

Right, seeing as I've wondered off on a tagent I'm popping of onto the Tecnical Forum and Drivetrain to start a new Topic 'Turbo Oil Feed' anyone care to join me

 

I think we will all agree that Subaru UK / IM are quite leniant with most minor modifications and are generally very good with resolving warrenty claims. There is obviousely a design defect with lubricating No 3 (a few high profile regulars on this BBS have had the problem with different models), but from what I have heard most sufferers of this problem have used their cars on track days and/or modified them extensively. I do not think Stef will get any/much more sympaphy from IM for the following reasons.
1). The warrenty expires after 60k miles.
2). They know of his modifications.
3). If they fix Stef's car it sends out the message to everyone that mods/drags/track days are allowed.

Good luck with the repairs Stef, hopefully they will not be too expensive.

 

Sorry to hear about the engine Stef, personally I think CK1 deserves an award for long term services (well) above and beyond the call of duty !

Can someone tell me whether piston slap and the no.3 big end problem are related ?, does piston slap inevitably lead to the failure of the big end or are we seeing b/e failures without any indication of piston slap. One or two of the threads seem to link the problems but I thought they were entirely separate - piston slap seemed to be a result of poor manufacturing and the b/e failures are an inbuilt design fault. Answers appreciated. I have an STi3 and after reading this thread and the current one about NUL or SUL I'm not sure if its something I should be wary of.

 

piston slap and B/E failure are not related IMHO. It is a fact that the MY97/98 engine runs hotter on number 3 cylinder than the rest, why, i am not sure?

What is happening with piston slap is the piston in number 3 is overheating and distorting, once distorted it's buggered for life.

The design has now changed to stop this problem ocuring.

As to number 3 always being the one to fail, its simple mechanical engineering principles that explain why 3 goes first.

It's the last journal to be fed oil, so the oil reaching it is hotter and at a lower flow rate than the previous bearings, if its going to fail anywhere, this is where it will happen.

 

Stef!

Sorry to hear about this mate , I know of some very cheap new Scooby engines available if you need one or the parts? Let me know.

Good Luck

Harj

 

So, does anybody know the cost of a piston replacement (or do you recommend a new short motor) to cure piston slap, if it happens after your warranty has expired? Is it worth it, or will it just continue with the slap with no real ill effects.

 

John F.

What causes the overheating of no.3 piston ?, I know its location doesn't help, but is it a manufacturing problem or something owners are or aren't doing ?

Kevin.

 

Stef,

What sort of temperatures were you seeing on track and what temperature does your car usually run at on the road, and what oil do you use.

As a comparison I use Castrol RS, my usual road temperatures used to be around 70-80 when warmed up. Since fitting an FMIC to my car these have crept up to 85-92 at most on a cruise and I've yet to experience being stuck in heavy traffic, previously it never went beyond 92 in heavy traffic, the highest I've seen since fitting FMIC is 95.

It would be interesting to see what sort of temps you were experiencing.

Regards
Nito

 

So it looks like the oil need to be thicker for track days but does this mean that the standard dealer mobil 1 5/40 is ok for 'standard' driving. When will Subaru catch on it this is the case?

Anyone got any views

(Running road use on Solkolene 5/40 for the winter at the moment and concerned)

Regards

jantec.

 

.. or even Silkolene (my typings cr*p!)

Regards

jantec.[/B][/QUOTE]

 

Thanks for all the replies guys, much appreciated.
To answer a few points.....

I change my oil every two months. I normally use Mobil 1 Motorsport 15w-50.
Whichever way this gets sorted out, the engine will be going away to have a direct oil feed to no.3 bearing fitted and possibly stronger internals too. I still plan to use the PPP ecu.
Whilst IM are aware of my mods, none of them could be held responsible for the damage my car has suffered. The warranty only exludes work if mods could be held responsible.
Oh, and on track my oil temp went up to 210 degrees F. On the road it's usually 180.

Mike.
Nowhere in my warranty are track days excluded. If they were, I wouldn't do them.

Regardless of the way I drive my car, the engine should not fail after 10,000 miles.
My first engine 'survived' 57,000 miles including 13 'gymkhanas'. I've only done two with this engine!
I hope IM put their renowned customer care policy to good use. If not, things will have to get more serious.

Stef.

 

John,

I'm not too sure about your logic when arguing that piston slap and crank bearing failure are not related. I think that it would not be unreasonable to summarise your argument as "piston slap is caused by overheating in the number 3 cylinder whereas crank bearing failure is caused by overheating in the number 3 cylinder". I realise that this is somewhat of a simplification and that we all shortcut our postings due to limited typing ability. Personally, I suspect that the source of the excess heat in the no. 3 cylinder that causes the piston/rod to distort is the crank bearing. Makes sense to me. Any gaping holes in my logic?

 

Stef

I don't particularly want to get into a heated debate about Subaru warranties but your warranty terms and conditions state that it does not cover failures resulting from misuse (eg overloading, rallying or racing), negligence, modification, alteration etc etc. Without actually stating that Track days constitute misuse it's obviously a contentious point, but that would not be their only gripe.

We must remember that we are talking about road cars and whilst good on a circuit the car was never designed with this use as a primary feature.

Mike

 

This does not sound good, I bought this car with the intention of taking it on trackdays.

It's starting to sound like I have made a bad purchase ....

Why oh why did I not buy that lovely 911 / Elise /Westfield etc



Gary

 

Mike.
So as I've said the warranty does not exclude track days.
I fail to see how Subaru could class a track day as 'misuse' when the car is sold a a high-performance derivative of a World Championship Rally winning machine?
Still, they've always known what my car's used for and they also knew about my mods when they last changed the engine, as they sent an inspector out. I guess they couldn't pin the engine blowing up on the exhaust or filter.

Stef.

 

Mike,
I'll reiterate again - if that's the case, surely your demo cars on track days ciuld be classed as misleading/decption etc that this is a suitable venue to drive the car.

Surely if it had warranty implications the Official tuner would not endorse them.

 

Not so long ago I looked into buying a UK Scooby new, in the showroom I asked does the warranty cover me for track days? Dealer looked in the handbook and said exactly the same thing as Mike has pointed out above!

This was a suprise to the dealer who also called SUK and asked them, they told him while I was standing there that any use of track for fun or anything else would make the warranty void as a road car is not built to this specification, this question has been asked twice on my behalf from 2 different dealers just to make sure it wasn't a mistake.

I think Stef must have a good relationship with his dealer but I do know SUK do not allow anything like trackdays.

Just my little addition

Harj..

 

I think Craig raised a good point to which I would like to add. I think its great that dealers and manufacturers do demonstration runs a tracks BUT!

Are these car now void of there warrenty? Will the person that buys one of these cars ever realise that it has been driven on a track? I doubt that the prospective buyer will be told this. Is this not illegal in some way? I spoke to a mechanic at one of the garages that does track days. He said the engines are not usually the same when they return

Oh and I think Subaru warrenty cover is excellent, just for the record