BMW 635d
13 July 2007, 01:14 PM
#31
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When are diesel fans going to accept basic principles of physics and realise that flywheel torque is not what governs flat-out acceleration when rolling? It's torque at the wheels after gear ratios apply torque multipliers, so if you apply physics and do the maths it boils down to flywheel bhp. Sure, torquey diesels will usually win in a drag race if you limit both cars to 4,000 revs, or in 5th gear from 50-70 or similar. However, if you run both cars flat out, bhp is what matters (or if you want to get technical, the integral under the bhp graph as you change up through the gears). On that point, the WRX PPP is only~20bhp down in a lighter car (albeit less aerodynamic than a 6 series), so until you get well into 3 figure speeds will be very similar pace if you're prepared to thrash it through the gears.
Put it another way, a suitably chipped Golf TDi can have more torque than a current formula 1 car. Which do you think would win an all out drag race from say 30-130mph?
Put it another way, a suitably chipped Golf TDi can have more torque than a current formula 1 car. Which do you think would win an all out drag race from say 30-130mph?
Anyway this prat Misty has only got a poxy astra! Is the 199 he's listed the BHP? Surely to death even a 'NORMAL' Scoob would hammer him from a set of lights, or a twisty road?
Dave
13 July 2007, 01:42 PM
#32
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When are diesel fans going to accept basic principles of physics and realise that flywheel torque is not what governs flat-out acceleration when rolling? It's torque at the wheels after gear ratios apply torque multipliers, so if you apply physics and do the maths it boils down to flywheel bhp. Sure, torquey diesels will usually win in a drag race if you limit both cars to 4,000 revs, or in 5th gear from 50-70 or similar. However, if you run both cars flat out, bhp is what matters (or if you want to get technical, the integral under the bhp graph as you change up through the gears). On that point, the WRX PPP is only~20bhp down in a lighter car (albeit less aerodynamic than a 6 series), so until you get well into 3 figure speeds will be very similar pace if you're prepared to thrash it through the gears.
Put it another way, a suitably chipped Golf TDi can have more torque than a current formula 1 car. Which do you think would win an all out drag race from say 30-130mph?
Put it another way, a suitably chipped Golf TDi can have more torque than a current formula 1 car. Which do you think would win an all out drag race from say 30-130mph?
German marque owners seem to be the worst affected, but any marque has owners that suffer from this. It's made worse when the vehicle in question has been marketed as sporty, and/or when the owner has upgraded from the usual rep-mobile slug and now has something capable of pulling the skin off rice pudding.
Other symptoms include the inability to ever move out of the way of faster machinery, incessant smugness about fuel economy, and a belief that a chip/remap will gift their vehicle the ability to win a tug-of-war with an oil tanker.
13 July 2007, 02:19 PM
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I think Mercedes make the best diesel engines, they are really quick. The CDI engines in the Merc vans are something to go by, most average cars struggle to keep up with them on the motorway.
I drove my Uncle's brand new 07 Merc E320 CDi the other day and I was well impressed. First of all when driving you couldn't even tell it was a diesel, secondly it went pretty well for a heavy car, plenty of power through the rev range and a very responsive auto box... It also has paddle shift
I drove my Uncle's brand new 07 Merc E320 CDi the other day and I was well impressed. First of all when driving you couldn't even tell it was a diesel, secondly it went pretty well for a heavy car, plenty of power through the rev range and a very responsive auto box... It also has paddle shift
13 July 2007, 02:56 PM
#37
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![[Davey]'s Avatar](data:image/svg+xml;utf8,<svg xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2000/svg' viewBox='0 0 50 50'><circle class='avatar-circle-default' fill='%23806b84' cx='25px' cy='25px' r='20px'></circle><text class='avatar-text-default' x='49%' y='53%' fill='white' text-anchor='middle' alignment-baseline='middle'>[</text></svg>)
I think Mercedes make the best diesel engines, they are really quick. The CDI engines in the Merc vans are something to go by, most average cars struggle to keep up with them on the motorway.
I drove my Uncle's brand new 07 Merc E320 CDi the other day and I was well impressed. First of all when driving you couldn't even tell it was a diesel, secondly it went pretty well for a heavy car, plenty of power through the rev range and a very responsive auto box... It also has paddle shift
I drove my Uncle's brand new 07 Merc E320 CDi the other day and I was well impressed. First of all when driving you couldn't even tell it was a diesel, secondly it went pretty well for a heavy car, plenty of power through the rev range and a very responsive auto box... It also has paddle shift
In the building theres an owner of a new CLS and another guys got a new 535 twin turbo... BMW wins hands down.
13 July 2007, 04:55 PM
#38
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The huge torque these diesels produce IS crucial.
All this rubbish about 'torque at the flywheel' or 'at the wheels' I've never heard anyone seriously use those meaningless terms. Torque is turning force and is not impacted in the same was as BHP (power) through the transmition system.
I would argue that peak BHP figures are a more erroneous way of judging a cars performance, especially if that peak is high relative to the rest of the power curve.
All this rubbish about 'torque at the flywheel' or 'at the wheels' I've never heard anyone seriously use those meaningless terms. Torque is turning force and is not impacted in the same was as BHP (power) through the transmition system.
I would argue that peak BHP figures are a more erroneous way of judging a cars performance, especially if that peak is high relative to the rest of the power curve.
13 July 2007, 06:46 PM
#39
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Well bollox it may be, but when someone pulls from the outside lane going 85/90 and boots it upto 140+, I IMHO would say he's having a play, and I stayed neck to neck with him, till we both slowed down, and he gave me a nod as he pulled off on a slip road a bit further down the road. So up your **** Do you actually know what a PPP is? The whole reason for my post was to point out the disparity in price compared to performance.
Regards
DaveW
Regards
DaveW
Where shall I start? Lets go back 30 years and start with performance cars of the era. Obviously no digital cameras back then but as soon as we get up to date I'll give you the pics as well ok?
1. 4- 3.0 Capri's
2. 2- 2.8 Capri's
3. 1-Dolomite sprint.
4. Meastro turbo.
5. Montego turbo.
6. Sierra Cosworth.
7. Pug 1.9gti
8. BMW 325i.
9. Rover 420 gsi turbo
10. Volvo T5.
11. TVR 400SE
12. Mini cooper s
13. WRX (I have to say this was so slow)
14. WRX PPP
15. Evo V
16. CTR
17. BMW330i
18.EVO VIII
And that brings us to the Astra. To be frank, apart from the 2 Evo's and the PPP wrx the astra would give all the rest a good run for their money.
Dave
Last edited by misty; 13 July 2007 at 06:49 PM. Reason: i
13 July 2007, 10:15 PM
#40
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Do I know what PPP is? Bloody hell pal I've had more performance cars than you have had school holidays!!
Where shall I start? Lets go back 30 years and start with performance cars of the era. Obviously no digital cameras back then but as soon as we get up to date I'll give you the pics as well ok?
1. 4- 3.0 Capri's
2. 2- 2.8 Capri's
3. 1-Dolomite sprint.
4. Meastro turbo.
5. Montego turbo.
6. Sierra Cosworth.
7. Pug 1.9gti
8. BMW 325i.
9. Rover 420 gsi turbo
10. Volvo T5.
11. TVR 400SE
12. Mini cooper s
13. WRX (I have to say this was so slow)
14. WRX PPP
15. Evo V
16. CTR
17. BMW330i
18.EVO VIII
And that brings us to the Astra. To be frank, apart from the 2 Evo's and the PPP wrx the astra would give all the rest a good run for their money.
Dave
Where shall I start? Lets go back 30 years and start with performance cars of the era. Obviously no digital cameras back then but as soon as we get up to date I'll give you the pics as well ok?
1. 4- 3.0 Capri's
2. 2- 2.8 Capri's
3. 1-Dolomite sprint.
4. Meastro turbo.
5. Montego turbo.
6. Sierra Cosworth.
7. Pug 1.9gti
8. BMW 325i.
9. Rover 420 gsi turbo
10. Volvo T5.
11. TVR 400SE
12. Mini cooper s
13. WRX (I have to say this was so slow)
14. WRX PPP
15. Evo V
16. CTR
17. BMW330i
18.EVO VIII
And that brings us to the Astra. To be frank, apart from the 2 Evo's and the PPP wrx the astra would give all the rest a good run for their money.
Dave
Dolomite Sprint
Brings back some memories, I had one too.
Bloody unreliable, but still a great car (for it's time)
13 July 2007, 10:42 PM
#41
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Well, What can I say! I would never buy a german car, just because of the stigma other drivers feel for them! LOL Yes there are some TDI's out there that really are very fast, But all that black smoke
. I'm sure for the money you could buy something faster, cleaner and something that dont tell everyone that you are a **** just because you drive it!
. I'm sure for the money you could buy something faster, cleaner and something that dont tell everyone that you are a **** just because you drive it!
13 July 2007, 10:56 PM
#42
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Is the following true????
The Turbo Deisel has very low down grunt thennn>>> dies at high speed
The petrol Turbo is slow off the mark (before Turbo kicks in) thennn>> keeps going eventually at high speed??
Regards
Alan MaC
The Turbo Deisel has very low down grunt thennn>>> dies at high speed
The petrol Turbo is slow off the mark (before Turbo kicks in) thennn>> keeps going eventually at high speed??
Regards
Alan MaC
13 July 2007, 11:19 PM
#43
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These modern diesels certainly don't die at high speeds
Gearing is hugely important as well, big torque diesels can carry much taller gears, this can be a huge advantage once moving.
13 July 2007, 11:36 PM
#44
1. 4- 3.0 Capri's
2. 2- 2.8 Capri's
3. 1-Dolomite sprint.
4. Meastro turbo.
5. Montego turbo.
6. Sierra Cosworth.
7. Pug 1.9gti
8. BMW 325i.
9. Rover 420 gsi turbo
10. Volvo T5.
11. TVR 400SE
12. Mini cooper s
13. WRX (I have to say this was so slow)
14. WRX PPP
15. Evo V
16. CTR
17. BMW330i
18.EVO VIII
Bloody hell Misty you've had a few cars mate not all I like may I say,but some nice ones in there to mate,Dare I say the EvoIII you had is a lovely looking car.
2. 2- 2.8 Capri's
3. 1-Dolomite sprint.
4. Meastro turbo.
5. Montego turbo.
6. Sierra Cosworth.
7. Pug 1.9gti
8. BMW 325i.
9. Rover 420 gsi turbo
10. Volvo T5.
11. TVR 400SE
12. Mini cooper s
13. WRX (I have to say this was so slow)
14. WRX PPP
15. Evo V
16. CTR
17. BMW330i
18.EVO VIII
Bloody hell Misty you've had a few cars mate not all I like may I say,but some nice ones in there to mate,Dare I say the EvoIII you had is a lovely looking car.
14 July 2007, 09:54 AM
#45
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Bloody hell Misty you've had a few cars mate not all I like may I say,but some nice ones in there to mate,Dare I say the EvoIII you had is a lovely looking car.
Dave
14 July 2007, 10:01 AM
#46
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14 July 2007, 10:04 AM
#47
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Put it another way, a suitably chipped Golf TDi can have more torque than a current formula 1 car. Which do you think would win an all out drag race from say 30-130mph?
Dave
14 July 2007, 10:08 AM
#48
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I call this syndrome 'Dieselitis', which is what a powerful diesel owner suffers from when the refuse to look at anything other than the peak torque figure.
German marque owners seem to be the worst affected, but any marque has owners that suffer from this. It's made worse when the vehicle in question has been marketed as sporty, and/or when the owner has upgraded from the usual rep-mobile slug and now has something capable of pulling the skin off rice pudding.
Other symptoms include the inability to ever move out of the way of faster machinery, incessant smugness about fuel economy, and a belief that a chip/remap will gift their vehicle the ability to win a tug-of-war with an oil tanker.
German marque owners seem to be the worst affected, but any marque has owners that suffer from this. It's made worse when the vehicle in question has been marketed as sporty, and/or when the owner has upgraded from the usual rep-mobile slug and now has something capable of pulling the skin off rice pudding.
Other symptoms include the inability to ever move out of the way of faster machinery, incessant smugness about fuel economy, and a belief that a chip/remap will gift their vehicle the ability to win a tug-of-war with an oil tanker.
go and have a look at the figures for a subaru rally car mate!!!
what they go for is torque not bhp,
so its not just diesel drivers who bang on about it!!!!!!!!
its a fact that for everyday driving torque is far better and for rallying/racing quicker
come out of a corner mid revs and the engine pull like a steam train
and you can get some good power slides going
14 July 2007, 10:14 AM
#49
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i'm with you on this "misty"
i have allways had diesel cars, have just bought a subaru
its a classic with 2.5engine and pushing about 340bhp/340torque
and when on the RR, the graph showed the torque curve was near vertical
it pulls from 2000rpm , 2500rpm its like a steam train so it feels very quick,
great fun to drive and all that torque , great for drifting
i have allways had diesel cars, have just bought a subaru
its a classic with 2.5engine and pushing about 340bhp/340torque
and when on the RR, the graph showed the torque curve was near vertical
it pulls from 2000rpm , 2500rpm its like a steam train so it feels very quick,
great fun to drive and all that torque , great for drifting
14 July 2007, 11:20 AM
#50
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14 July 2007, 01:09 PM
#51
the new BMW diesel unit are very good. certainly changed my stereo typical view of a diesel engine.
the twin turbo BMW unit has an almost petrol like power delivery. which is what counts.
i still perfer petrol units tho. you'll never get the flat four burble from a derv
the twin turbo BMW unit has an almost petrol like power delivery. which is what counts.
i still perfer petrol units tho. you'll never get the flat four burble from a derv
14 July 2007, 01:33 PM
#52
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My previous car was a 330d sport. Car before that a Jap STi version V. Went for the diesel mostly for monetary reasons as the Scoob was costing me a fortune! Still wanted an element of performance hence the 330d. I did used to have some fun baiting performance cars like the Scoob however I was not foolish enough to think that I could really beat them ... was just a bit fun
TX.
TX.
14 July 2007, 01:46 PM
#53
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The huge torque these diesels produce IS crucial.
All this rubbish about 'torque at the flywheel' or 'at the wheels' I've never heard anyone seriously use those meaningless terms. Torque is turning force and is not impacted in the same was as BHP (power) through the transmition system.
I would argue that peak BHP figures are a more erroneous way of judging a cars performance, especially if that peak is high relative to the rest of the power curve.
All this rubbish about 'torque at the flywheel' or 'at the wheels' I've never heard anyone seriously use those meaningless terms. Torque is turning force and is not impacted in the same was as BHP (power) through the transmition system.
I would argue that peak BHP figures are a more erroneous way of judging a cars performance, especially if that peak is high relative to the rest of the power curve.
However, as for your second paragraph. Torque is "impacted" by a transmission transmission system as it is multiplied, shorter gears (due to higher revs) mean it is multiplied more - so you get more torque at the wheels, which is where it's transmitted to the road. If you can't understand this kind of basic physics / engineering, don't "rubbish" people who do understand it.
14 July 2007, 01:51 PM
#54
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Do you often talk out of you ****? If the F1 car was limited to 4500rpm instead of 18000rpm then the golf would win. The only reason F1 cars are so quick is the extremely high rev limit they have. My car does about 6mph/1000rpm in 1st, that means about 30 mph on the limiter. An F1 car does about 4mph/1000rpm which means about 72mph in 1st gear! It isn't rocket science.
Dave
Dave
No, it isn't rocket science at all, but it is still clearly beyond your limited grasp.
You can get 10cc model racing engine going to 40,000rpm - i.e. double the rev limit of an F1 car - and could have a much lower gear ratio still. However, as they have say 5bhp, they won't win any races with an F1 car. Going back to basic physics, higher revs equals lower gearing equals more acceleration. Given that torque times rpm is bhp (with a constant for scaling units) what does that tell anyone who understands physics or engineering?PS I'll give you a clue, it tells you that I'm not the one talking out of my ****.
14 July 2007, 01:57 PM
#55
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go and have a look at the figures for a subaru rally car mate!!!
what they go for is torque not bhp,
so its not just diesel drivers who bang on about it!!!!!!!!
its a fact that for everyday driving torque is far better and for rallying/racing quicker
come out of a corner mid revs and the engine pull like a steam train and you can get some good power slides going
what they go for is torque not bhp,
so its not just diesel drivers who bang on about it!!!!!!!!
its a fact that for everyday driving torque is far better and for rallying/racing quicker
come out of a corner mid revs and the engine pull like a steam train
and you can get some good power slides going Again, if you take the old group B rally cars (before limiters etc were brought in), they'll hammer a modern WRC car in a straight line race. And guess what, the torque figures are generally no higher, but the bhp is much higher.
Do your
all you like, but your "facts" demonstrate that you're at least the 3rd person on this thread with no understanding of basic physics.
23 July 2007, 01:23 AM
#56
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Hot dinners
Do I know what PPP is? Bloody hell pal I've had more performance cars than you have had school holidays!!
Where shall I start? Lets go back 30 years and start with performance cars of the era. Obviously no digital cameras back then but as soon as we get up to date I'll give you the pics as well ok?
1. 4- 3.0 Capri's
2. 2- 2.8 Capri's
3. 1-Dolomite sprint.
4. Meastro turbo.
5. Montego turbo.
6. Sierra Cosworth.
7. Pug 1.9gti
8. BMW 325i.
9. Rover 420 gsi turbo
10. Volvo T5.
11. TVR 400SE
12. Mini cooper s
13. WRX (I have to say this was so slow)
14. WRX PPP
15. Evo V
16. CTR
17. BMW330i
18.EVO VIII
And that brings us to the Astra. To be frank, apart from the 2 Evo's and the PPP wrx the astra would give all the rest a good run for their money.
Dave
Where shall I start? Lets go back 30 years and start with performance cars of the era. Obviously no digital cameras back then but as soon as we get up to date I'll give you the pics as well ok?
1. 4- 3.0 Capri's
2. 2- 2.8 Capri's
3. 1-Dolomite sprint.
4. Meastro turbo.
5. Montego turbo.
6. Sierra Cosworth.
7. Pug 1.9gti
8. BMW 325i.
9. Rover 420 gsi turbo
10. Volvo T5.
11. TVR 400SE
12. Mini cooper s
13. WRX (I have to say this was so slow)
14. WRX PPP
15. Evo V
16. CTR
17. BMW330i
18.EVO VIII
And that brings us to the Astra. To be frank, apart from the 2 Evo's and the PPP wrx the astra would give all the rest a good run for their money.
Dave
But how do you know how many hot dinners or more to the point what cars I've owned?
Mine include in my paltry 25 years of driving:
(performance cars (ish) only) in no particular order
Seat Leon Cupra R
Dolomite sprint
MG ZR 160
Sierra Cosworth
Ford Capri 2.8i
Ford Escort Mexico
Nissan Primera GTe(well it had a twin cam)
My other current car - Ford Mondeo TDCi ST!
and an awful lot of others that wouldn't fall into a 'performance' category.
Mine you I did 14 years in the Army and did drive a Cheiftain Tank, which I suppose was a Diesel!!!
don't get me onto the bikes I've had, but obviously you with your 30 years and superior knowledge know all, and I know jack ****!
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