why??????

I was alledged to have been doing 39 in a 30 zone, i decided to fight it because i did not believe i was speeding, 21 months later and a few court appearances i won..................


(to cut a very long story short!)

 

I think the confusion arises when they see a dual carriageway with national speed signs, so they think 60mph but the highway code clearly states that a national speed limit sign on a dual carriageway has a speed limit of 70mph

 

Wow, quite a response!

I can take the punishment, just after the event I'm not sure this was actually fair.

The dual carriageway is separated by armco so 70 i think. He insisted it was 60 there.
I will drive back to the road and check the signs.
He showed me the footage of him arriving to the dual carriage and he was there completly randomly, not prowling the road.

Need some time to think. Handed my licence in now anyway, but I deserve to see the evidence again?

He said the road was 60 and I was doing 71. I even told him the road was 60!

TBH the more i think about it the more I put it down to the way this country is. I was there doing the wrong thing in a great car and he couldn't find his real target, a van that had been involved in a house robbery.

I was simply on the list in his mind and next up.

I have only had cause to meet the Police 3 times in my life (I'm old by the way), once when my 16 year old daughter was mollested by a 63 year old and it took 2 weeks to get a response. 2nd when my shed was gutted by theives and all i had then was a crime number scribbled down on a piece of paper i found, and this experience.



Graham.

 

What i cant understand though is why they still use national speed limit signs on the single carrage 60mph limit roads

 

really they should make it clear and put the actual speed signs down.

 

That has sealed your fate Graham. Turning over your licence is regarded as an admission of guilt. Even if you cn establish that the road had a 70mph limit Id be surprised if you could actually be aquitted in a magistrates/police court...


Simon

 

Totally agree with the signs!
Why not simply state the bloody speed of the road?

It might help people do you think? (do the limit)

Maybe confusion is a good thing for the Authorities?

I have edited my last post.

In all this palarva I must say the Police man was courtious and reasonable, 'doing his job' actually professional which is more that can be said for my last Police Experience.

Enough said of it all really, I'll have a search on the net for some other data on the speed measuring side.

 

The speed debate all depends on wether there is a fixed (ie armco) central divide. If there is a central barrier then the NSL in effect is 70 (unless otherwise stated by alternative road signs)
If there is NO central divide, but still two lanes in either direction, the NSL is still only 60 (once again - unless otherwise stated by alternative road signs <which will always be a lower amount>)

 

Totally agree, NEVER EVER hand over your licence to a police officer

You never know when you may need it in the meantime.

At least make them prove you were speeding rather than admitting it.

 

It doesn't require armco, a plain ordinary grass central reservation is enough to warrant 70mph under NSL signs. Although fixed armco in itself plonked between opposing lanes is enough to warrant the same (if that's what you meant)

 

You should definatley go and check. It is possible for the road to be a 60 limit (even with a central divide)

The only way for you to now see the evidence again is by contesting the ticket - But beware, in court the fine can be increased up to an amount of £1000 and six penalty points.

Good luck if you do decide to appeal

 

Pretty sure it is only relevant if it is a FIXED central divide. therefore grass would not be classed as fixed.

 

The Highway Code

I'll stand correction, but from reading that lot.. that's the way I interpret it.

 

Taken from http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety...knowyourlimits

There is sometimes some confusion as to what a dual carriageway is, especially for those vehicles restricted to speed limits below that for cars, such as HGVs and Coaches. In short, a dual carriageway is a road that is separated by a central reservation. A central reservation is anything other than a pedestrian refuge that separates vehicles going in one direction from vehicles going in the other direction. It should be noted that although it is more usual to have two or more lanes in each direction, the number of lanes is not specified, i.e. it is the presence of a central reservation rather than the number of lanes that determines whether or not a road is a dual carriageway.

 

Which indeed supports my thinking..

That said; the document you just linked to is a safety guide by the DfT to encourage slower (and in their way of thinking ergo safer) driving, the link that I provided is the Statutory Instrument (i.e. the law) passed by Parliament. I can see what you are saying though.. and it is evident throughout this thread that people are not sure of what a dual carriageway is, and worse still are unsure about when the NSL at it's upper or lower limit is applicable.

It would be far simpler, as some have suggested, just to stick up 50, 60, or 70 signs.. then there's no chance of confusion. But I suppose it boils town to cost as usual, being prohibitive to replace all the signage, and still (being cynical) with the added confusion they can make a nice little earner out of it..

Interesting aside that the NSL was intended initially as a temporary measure.. and it should have stayed that way.

 

Not forgetting repeat speed markers every 100? meters in anything above a 30 limit

 

If there were 2 lanes for vehicles to travel in the same direction on one side of the road with any kind of separation in the form of grass, kerbing, tarmac, armco or anything else with a different surface between those lanes and one or more lanes on the other side of the road for traffic coming in the opposite direction, then our 911 friend was on a dual carriageway.

The next point is, are there any speed restriction signs on this dual carriageway? If there are not, then he is entitled to travel at up to 70 mph.

I suspect the fact that the policeman maintains the speed limit on this piece of road is 60 mph is that somewhere, our friend missed seeing a restriction sign as coppers aren't usually wrong about this kind of thing.

If that sign is obscured in any way, his conviction is not sound and can be overturned upon production of photographic evidence despite handing over his licence. There is very recent case history in this respect.

If, however, there is a sign that can be clearly seen, then 911 man could be deemed to have been driving without due care and attention! In these circumstances, take the speeding fine, accept the points and be more vigilant in the future.

If I spot any vehicle taking off after me, I chuck the car into 4th, 3rd and, if required, 2nd gear to slow it hard and use the hand brake as well so no brake lights show whilst the rapid deceleration ensures I am back under the speed limit in a jiffy. That's worked very well over the past 40 years, mostly false alarms, but also with some unmarked cars. I've had a few nasty looks though! On one occasion, I got a fierce finger wagging as they drew alongside and on another the passenger plod waved his flat hat at me! But I have avoided a ticket or ten!

The other thing about unmarked cars is that they are usually relatively easy to spot. there's the extra mirror and more aeriels for starters. Somewhere I have seen a website that lists what plods are using as people who get stopped or spot the cars mail in the details.

Personally when I go for a blast, I run up the road at just under the legal speed first, check it all out carefully, and then have my fun on the way back.

 

They don't put a speed limit sign because the limit in a national speed limit area is different for different vehicles

 

Graham, Get a FORD POP no chance of speeding then and if you do speed they will laugh their heads off
Just a case of BAD LUCK

KIP

 

Very good point actually!

 

I think some are also confusing a single carriageway with a single track road.

single carriageway = like most built up areas one car one way and one the other.

Single track road = narrow country lane ie if one of you dont pull into a passing spot you will have a head on.

 

i bet there camera wasn"t calibrated

 

this is taken from a driving secrets book i have

Vascar

the courts generally accept that vascar is an accurate method of speed detection so there is little point in challenging its legitimacy.

it does have its limitations however

using these devices accuratly requires skill and visual acuity as well as good reaction times, officers using them must therefor be trained to a high standard and have there abilities tested and certified.

it is necessary to use the device in well lit areas and good weather conditions,they should not be used in fog or snow.

officers using the "following" method must be carefull to avoid a charge of acting as agent provocateur ie enticing the driver infront or behind to break the speed limit.

as with radar and laser devices Vascar units must be professionally calibrated at least once a year and a certificate issued,they should also be checked before any tour of duty ,and afterwards if they have been used to detect an offence.

 

Yes that too!!

 

With respect to other members it highlights the differnece between people who don't have a clue about the law giving advice compared to people who deal with it every day.

 

Touché... hence no advice given!

Although I would have thought "no quibbles" signage was still workable even with respect to other vehicles etc. Similar rules would still apply for certain types of vehicle on the road, as an example a duel carriageway/motorway might be signed at 70, but lorries or whatever are restricted to 50 or 60 mph despite what the sign says, and say 50 on single carriageways that are signed at 60 whilst obviously limited to any lower speed restrictions that might apply on any type of road. These are professional drivers so it really shouldn't be that difficult for them to comprehend, and it wouldn't work all that much differently from the current system would it? Whilst the average pleb on wheels is left with no confusion whilst driving a car.. I dunno just seems that there is probably a better way of doing it.

 

My 2 penneth....

AFAIK when using VASCAR they must follow you for a minimum of 0.1 miles. Given you were travelling at about 70mph means he would need to follow you for 5.15s to get the required reading. The system is not automatic, rather a simple calculation of time and distance, with time coming from a simple stopwatch device operated by the officer. In a fair and just legal system such a device would not carry any credance as it is open to corruption by an officer simply clicking on late and off early, making it appear the distance was travelled in less time and increasing the alleged recorded speed. However, this is England where the corrupt Police and CSA are allowed to do whatever they like to persecute motorists out of money.

With regards to the speed limit, as has already been said, NSL on a single where both directions travel on unseparated lanes is 60 for ordinary vehicles, and on separated lanes 70. The reason for not using the numbers is because extraordinary vehicles may have different limits imposed, such as towing vehicles or heavy lorries.

You should never show a traffic officer your license as it is an admission of guilt and proof of identity. If you do not show it and then do not show up in court, but have a brief present in your stead the prosecuting officer cannot identify you.

 

Due to the way the stopwatch works, I am sure any lawyer would pick this up in court. It would be visibly evident if the officer started the timer and stopped the timer at different points to where the distance was marked to/from. There may be only a little variation between the offending vehicle and the police vehicle in relation to landmarks used for the reading, hence why there is usually some tollerance given to the recorded speed beore proscecution (i.e. not likely to get pulled for doing 75 in a 70.

 

With such a small timing required over such a short distance, even the slightest variation can create a wildly different approximation of speed. Note the word "approximation" ! Another reason this device should not be used IMHO. It can NEVER truly be qualified as 100% accurate, and even though in training and testing an officer may be able to consistently achieve a reliable accuracy against more proven and accurate measuring devices, in the field it can, and I am sure IS abused. Then again, if even Mr. "Loophole" Freeman hasn't yet discredited the device, then maybe no-one ever will

 

Made my mind up.

I will not be contesting it as i think I have done enough to hang myself.

He 'read' out the speech that the car was calibrated, and assuming a policeman would not lie, and would know he could be challenged in Court over that, I guess he is on solid ground.

It is all on camera and convinced me at the time so the busy 'lets get this one done and go for tea' court would be trusting it. It would be me in the dock not the Police, we all know the game there.

Thr Dual carriage is separated all the way along the road in question by a full Armco, but i will check to see if the road is signed @ 60.

I use the road every day to go to work, familiarity does breed contempt.

I got caught speeding in a fast competent car that I have had since 1988 and raced for 10 years too, so I certainly know the car/my capabilities.
He was alarmed I was doing 70 round a sweeping bend in a '60' (or on the speed limit) on a dry road.

He hit 91 mph to catch me from a distance and nearly drove up my exhaust pipes in the end as I approached the large roundabout indicating to turn right. He had to get to me asap to clock the correct speed before I slowed for the island.

But as we know Police men are infalable drivers and expert in all driving skills compared to me.

All good fun for him maybe or just a dedicated Officer looking after the community he is paid to do and uphold the law?

KIP:
You may be right!