Just done for speeding by unmarked police car!
14 July 2007 | 09:10 AM
#62
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From: west yorks
If the officer has stated on the forms that you were doing xmph in a 60 zone when in fact you were in a 70 zone then the evidence/charge sheet is incorrect (he made a mistake) and would be thrown out if contested.
If he can't even work out how fast you are allowed to go how can anyone be certain he stopped you for breaking the law?
If he can't even work out how fast you are allowed to go how can anyone be certain he stopped you for breaking the law?
14 July 2007 | 09:53 AM
#63
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From: Bridgnorth with the Steam trains
Graham that sucks,but just out of self interest where were you pulled and what did the car look like
was it local to you
ps how's that downpipe is it working out ok?
burns
was it local to you
ps how's that downpipe is it working out ok?
burns
14 July 2007 | 10:22 AM
#64
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From: Darlington
My 2 penneth....
AFAIK when using VASCAR they must follow you for a minimum of 0.1 miles. Given you were travelling at about 70mph means he would need to follow you for 5.15s to get the required reading. The system is not automatic, rather a simple calculation of time and distance, with time coming from a simple stopwatch device operated by the officer. In a fair and just legal system such a device would not carry any credance as it is open to corruption by an officer simply clicking on late and off early, making it appear the distance was travelled in less time and increasing the alleged recorded speed. However, this is England where the corrupt Police and CSA are allowed to do whatever they like to persecute motorists out of money.
With regards to the speed limit, as has already been said, NSL on a single where both directions travel on unseparated lanes is 60 for ordinary vehicles, and on separated lanes 70. The reason for not using the numbers is because extraordinary vehicles may have different limits imposed, such as towing vehicles or heavy lorries.
You should never show a traffic officer your license as it is an admission of guilt and proof of identity. If you do not show it and then do not show up in court, but have a brief present in your stead the prosecuting officer cannot identify you.
AFAIK when using VASCAR they must follow you for a minimum of 0.1 miles. Given you were travelling at about 70mph means he would need to follow you for 5.15s to get the required reading. The system is not automatic, rather a simple calculation of time and distance, with time coming from a simple stopwatch device operated by the officer. In a fair and just legal system such a device would not carry any credance as it is open to corruption by an officer simply clicking on late and off early, making it appear the distance was travelled in less time and increasing the alleged recorded speed. However, this is England where the corrupt Police and CSA are allowed to do whatever they like to persecute motorists out of money.
With regards to the speed limit, as has already been said, NSL on a single where both directions travel on unseparated lanes is 60 for ordinary vehicles, and on separated lanes 70. The reason for not using the numbers is because extraordinary vehicles may have different limits imposed, such as towing vehicles or heavy lorries.
You should never show a traffic officer your license as it is an admission of guilt and proof of identity. If you do not show it and then do not show up in court, but have a brief present in your stead the prosecuting officer cannot identify you.
(or the clown prosecution service to give them there deserved title)
14 July 2007 | 10:53 AM
#65
Graham, definitely check the road in question for signage, taking a camera with you in case you are correct (a copy of the days paper in the shot wouldn't hurt either)..
Just to clarify, as there are an unbelievable number of people on here who don't know anywhere near enough to pass even an 'L' test..!
A dual carriageway, as said has to have a dividing central reservation between the directions of travel. That's it..! It doesn't matter if there's 1 lane in each direction or 10 (or indeed 1 one side and 10 the other), it's still DC.
A single carriageway is 'one road', divided in half (quite often with a dotted line) with one side for each direction of travel..! Again, the number of lanes on either side is irrelevant. A good example of this is the A38 (Aston Expressway) into Birmingham. A Big 7 lane carriageway that operates a tidal flow system, therefore no central divide and hence designated a SINGLE carriageway with an enforced 50mph limit.
Go out and buy a Highway Code, they're not expensive and are actually an interesting read. You never know, it may save you a few quid/points or even your life..!
Here's an idea, what about a group buy on them..!
Just to clarify, as there are an unbelievable number of people on here who don't know anywhere near enough to pass even an 'L' test..!
A dual carriageway, as said has to have a dividing central reservation between the directions of travel. That's it..! It doesn't matter if there's 1 lane in each direction or 10 (or indeed 1 one side and 10 the other), it's still DC.
A single carriageway is 'one road', divided in half (quite often with a dotted line) with one side for each direction of travel..! Again, the number of lanes on either side is irrelevant. A good example of this is the A38 (Aston Expressway) into Birmingham. A Big 7 lane carriageway that operates a tidal flow system, therefore no central divide and hence designated a SINGLE carriageway with an enforced 50mph limit.
Go out and buy a Highway Code, they're not expensive and are actually an interesting read. You never know, it may save you a few quid/points or even your life..!
Here's an idea, what about a group buy on them..!
14 July 2007 | 11:36 AM
#66
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From: Edinburgh (ish)
Totally agree re the amusing "dewell" carriageway debate !! LOL.
Andy
14 July 2007 | 11:52 AM
#67
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From: Berkshire
National speed limit on a DUAL Carriageway way (i.e. there is a solid break in the middle) is 70mph... end of...
14 July 2007 | 11:59 AM
#68
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From: 15 Credibility Street
Made my mind up.
I will not be contesting it as i think I have done enough to hang myself.
He 'read' out the speech that the car was calibrated, and assuming a policeman would not lie, and would know he could be challenged in Court over that, I guess he is on solid ground.
It is all on camera and convinced me at the time so the busy 'lets get this one done and go for tea' court would be trusting it. It would be me in the dock not the Police, we all know the game there.
Thr Dual carriage is separated all the way along the road in question by a full Armco, but i will check to see if the road is signed @ 60.
I use the road every day to go to work, familiarity does breed contempt.
I got caught speeding in a fast competent car that I have had since 1988 and raced for 10 years too, so I certainly know the car/my capabilities.
He was alarmed I was doing 70 round a sweeping bend in a '60' (or on the speed limit) on a dry road.
He hit 91 mph to catch me from a distance and nearly drove up my exhaust pipes in the end as I approached the large roundabout indicating to turn right. He had to get to me asap to clock the correct speed before I slowed for the island.
But as we know Police men are infalable drivers and expert in all driving skills compared to me.
All good fun for him maybe or just a dedicated Officer looking after the community he is paid to do and uphold the law?
KIP:
You may be right!
I will not be contesting it as i think I have done enough to hang myself.
He 'read' out the speech that the car was calibrated, and assuming a policeman would not lie, and would know he could be challenged in Court over that, I guess he is on solid ground.
It is all on camera and convinced me at the time so the busy 'lets get this one done and go for tea' court would be trusting it. It would be me in the dock not the Police, we all know the game there.
Thr Dual carriage is separated all the way along the road in question by a full Armco, but i will check to see if the road is signed @ 60.
I use the road every day to go to work, familiarity does breed contempt.
I got caught speeding in a fast competent car that I have had since 1988 and raced for 10 years too, so I certainly know the car/my capabilities.
He was alarmed I was doing 70 round a sweeping bend in a '60' (or on the speed limit) on a dry road.
He hit 91 mph to catch me from a distance and nearly drove up my exhaust pipes in the end as I approached the large roundabout indicating to turn right. He had to get to me asap to clock the correct speed before I slowed for the island.
But as we know Police men are infalable drivers and expert in all driving skills compared to me.
All good fun for him maybe or just a dedicated Officer looking after the community he is paid to do and uphold the law?
KIP:
You may be right!
That really p15535 me off, you do 70 which is unsafe and get 3 points and a £60 fine. He does 91 which isn't unsafe and gets nothing.
I would bet a lot of drivers involved in motorsports would be as good and as safe as a lot of coppers, if not better.
Next time maybe you could slow down straight away so he gets less chance to get the correct reading.
14 July 2007 | 12:31 PM
#69
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Speed limit on a Dual Carriageway is definitely 70mph.. I know this because I previously thought it was 60, until my girlfriends sister showed me her driving theory test CD ROM and one of the questions was 'what's the speed limit on a Dual Carriageway' and the answer was indeed 70MPH.
14 July 2007 | 01:25 PM
#70
Graham, I can't believe you're going to take £60 and 3 points for doing 71 in a 70! Have you lost your senses?
Contest it man, as someone has mentioned before, if you can show there is a nsl sign on the dual carriageway, and nothing else, then you were doing 1mph over the limit, and the policemans report of being in a 60mph is wrong!
Contest it.
Contest it man, as someone has mentioned before, if you can show there is a nsl sign on the dual carriageway, and nothing else, then you were doing 1mph over the limit, and the policemans report of being in a 60mph is wrong!
Contest it.
14 July 2007 | 01:34 PM
#71
From what you are saying, it does sound particulary dodgy - if its dual, its 70, regardless of a sweeping bend; if he thought you were driving recklessly, he should charge you with that, not a spot speeding ticket, because you weren't speeding. Tell them to ram it. (IMHO)
Last edited by Prasius; 14 July 2007 at 01:39 PM.
14 July 2007 | 01:40 PM
#72
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From: In a house with windows and doors
If it is a dual carriageway with national speed limit signs and a central reservation its 70 mph without a central reservation the speed limit has to be posted ie 60,50,40 or even 30.
For Example the A556 near me changes speed about 5 times from 70 60 and 50 in about 10 miles with gatso`s at nearly every change B*tards catch loads of people out all the time.
To my knowledge you cant be prosecuted for 1 mph anyway??
For Example the A556 near me changes speed about 5 times from 70 60 and 50 in about 10 miles with gatso`s at nearly every change B*tards catch loads of people out all the time.
To my knowledge you cant be prosecuted for 1 mph anyway??
14 July 2007 | 07:32 PM
#74
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A bit more for you all:
The ticket reads:
Offence code: 921
Brief wording: Exceeded posted 60mph limit.
Burns:
That DP from API was fab, talk about a great fit.
The Impreza has all it's sparkle back at the top end again!
The road was the A449 from Wombourne to Wolverhampton (Penn) so beware!
Will take a look at the road tomorrow morning and see if '60' is posted, but my wife thinks it is.
Simple questions:
1
Can I get the actual speed I was doing from someone in the System at this late stage. They must keep the recording for evidence.
2
If the speed limit is 60 and I was doing 71 then he has me fair and square.
3
If the limit is 70 and I was doing 71 technically he has me.
In all this, the one thing we all have to use is the speedo.
For an MoT you do not need a speedo!
In an MoT the speedo is not checked for accuracy!
No wonder we all panic brake for Gatso's.
You know, the Police man was not a bast@rd, he was professional and I seriously doubt he would have made any silly contestable mistakes.
In all this I simply need to know how fast I was going when he clocked me while examining my cars rear badge close-up.
I bet i cannot find this fact out.
The ticket reads:
Offence code: 921
Brief wording: Exceeded posted 60mph limit.
Burns:
That DP from API was fab, talk about a great fit.
The Impreza has all it's sparkle back at the top end again!
The road was the A449 from Wombourne to Wolverhampton (Penn) so beware!
Will take a look at the road tomorrow morning and see if '60' is posted, but my wife thinks it is.
Simple questions:
1
Can I get the actual speed I was doing from someone in the System at this late stage. They must keep the recording for evidence.
2
If the speed limit is 60 and I was doing 71 then he has me fair and square.
3
If the limit is 70 and I was doing 71 technically he has me.
In all this, the one thing we all have to use is the speedo.
For an MoT you do not need a speedo!
In an MoT the speedo is not checked for accuracy!
No wonder we all panic brake for Gatso's.
You know, the Police man was not a bast@rd, he was professional and I seriously doubt he would have made any silly contestable mistakes.
In all this I simply need to know how fast I was going when he clocked me while examining my cars rear badge close-up.
I bet i cannot find this fact out.
14 July 2007 | 07:39 PM
#75
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Quite surprising how many people ( in general not just here ) aren't aware that national limit of 70mph applies to dual carriageway. Lots of people think the national limit on country single carriageways is 50mph and are not aware it is 60mph - unless the signs say 50mph of course.
14 July 2007 | 07:44 PM
#76
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From: Just beyond the limits of adhesion
Usually they don't know what limit it is, nor do they know how fast they were going. The majority just drive along blissfully unaware of what is around them or what they are doing. Let's face it, that phone call, your make-up, the Starbucks latte, last nights TV, the girl in the short skirt at the bus-stop etc are all more important than driving and worth risking a serious accident
14 July 2007 | 09:07 PM
#77
A bit more for you all:
The ticket reads:
Offence code: 921
Brief wording: Exceeded posted 60mph limit.
Burns:
That DP from API was fab, talk about a great fit.
The Impreza has all it's sparkle back at the top end again!
The road was the A449 from Wombourne to Wolverhampton (Penn) so beware!
Will take a look at the road tomorrow morning and see if '60' is posted, but my wife thinks it is.
Simple questions:
1
Can I get the actual speed I was doing from someone in the System at this late stage. They must keep the recording for evidence.
2
If the speed limit is 60 and I was doing 71 then he has me fair and square.
3
If the limit is 70 and I was doing 71 technically he has me.
In all this, the one thing we all have to use is the speedo.
For an MoT you do not need a speedo!
In an MoT the speedo is not checked for accuracy!
No wonder we all panic brake for Gatso's.
You know, the Police man was not a bast@rd, he was professional and I seriously doubt he would have made any silly contestable mistakes.
In all this I simply need to know how fast I was going when he clocked me while examining my cars rear badge close-up.
I bet i cannot find this fact out.
The ticket reads:
Offence code: 921
Brief wording: Exceeded posted 60mph limit.
Burns:
That DP from API was fab, talk about a great fit.
The Impreza has all it's sparkle back at the top end again!
The road was the A449 from Wombourne to Wolverhampton (Penn) so beware!
Will take a look at the road tomorrow morning and see if '60' is posted, but my wife thinks it is.
Simple questions:
1
Can I get the actual speed I was doing from someone in the System at this late stage. They must keep the recording for evidence.
2
If the speed limit is 60 and I was doing 71 then he has me fair and square.
3
If the limit is 70 and I was doing 71 technically he has me.
In all this, the one thing we all have to use is the speedo.
For an MoT you do not need a speedo!
In an MoT the speedo is not checked for accuracy!
No wonder we all panic brake for Gatso's.
You know, the Police man was not a bast@rd, he was professional and I seriously doubt he would have made any silly contestable mistakes.
In all this I simply need to know how fast I was going when he clocked me while examining my cars rear badge close-up.
I bet i cannot find this fact out.
14 July 2007 | 09:12 PM
#78
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From: Just beyond the limits of adhesion
ACPO guidelines recommend 10%+2 (30=35, 70=79 etc), but the law is 70. Also remember that most speedos underread by an average of 10%, so if caught at an actual 79, you may well have been looking at 86 or so on your clock.
14 July 2007 | 09:20 PM
#79
I was caught a few years ago for excess speed in a rural 50mph limit.
I was speeding and so put my hands up and accepted the ticket at the side of the road.
I then came on here and realised that accepting the ticket was the worst thing I could have done - it appears to be admission of guilt. I wouldn't do it again.
What did nark me a little bit, was that the officer who 'did' me was travelling in an unmarked Corsa which was tailgating a green L-plated Escort, travelling at 40-45mph. I ended up overtaking both cars in one move because they were so close to each other. Having thought about it a bit more, if I hadn't accepted the ticket at the time, I would have contested it, just because of the p**s poor driving of the police officer!
I was speeding and so put my hands up and accepted the ticket at the side of the road.
I then came on here and realised that accepting the ticket was the worst thing I could have done - it appears to be admission of guilt. I wouldn't do it again.
What did nark me a little bit, was that the officer who 'did' me was travelling in an unmarked Corsa which was tailgating a green L-plated Escort, travelling at 40-45mph. I ended up overtaking both cars in one move because they were so close to each other. Having thought about it a bit more, if I hadn't accepted the ticket at the time, I would have contested it, just because of the p**s poor driving of the police officer!
14 July 2007 | 11:11 PM
#80
Thread Starter
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The dual carriageway in my situation is NOT 60 mph!
I have requested the speed i was 'clocked' at and the time he tailgated me to acertain my speed.
So, anything over about 75 and I'm still doomed.
Lets see if I get an answer, but the speed of the road on the ticket is WRONG.
I have requested the speed i was 'clocked' at and the time he tailgated me to acertain my speed.
So, anything over about 75 and I'm still doomed.
Lets see if I get an answer, but the speed of the road on the ticket is WRONG.
15 July 2007 | 12:23 AM
#82
their ***** !! im tempted to contest a speeding fine i got ! i caught sight of the van and looked at my speedo and i was doing 60mph in a 50mph so i braked and passed the van doing 40mph, i get my nip in the post expecting it to be a 54/55mph but it has me doing 63mph WTF i would of had to be going at least 70 for that speed to register 
i dont mind holding my hands up to my proper speed but not some silly made up one
i dont mind holding my hands up to my proper speed but not some silly made up one
15 July 2007 | 12:49 AM
#83
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From: north/west yorkshire
Single
carriage-
ways Dual
carriage-
ways
Type of vehicle MPH MPH MPH MPH
Cars and motorcycles
(including car derived vans up to 2 tonnes maximum laden weight) 30 60 70 70
Cars towing caravans or trailers
(including car derived vans and motorcycles) 30 50 60 60
Buses and coaches
(not exceeding 12 metres in overall length) 30 50 60 70
Goods vehicles
(not exceeding 7.5 tonnes maximum laden weight) 30 50 60 70+
Goods vehicles
(exceeding 7.5 tonnes maximum laden weight) 30 40 50 60
These are the national speed limits and apply to all roads unless signs show otherwise
* The 30 mph limit applies to all traffic on all roads in England and Wales (only Class C and unclassified roads in Scotland) with street lighting unless signs show otherwise)
+ 60 if articulated or towing a trailer
carriage-
ways Dual
carriage-
ways
Type of vehicle MPH MPH MPH MPH
Cars and motorcycles
(including car derived vans up to 2 tonnes maximum laden weight) 30 60 70 70
Cars towing caravans or trailers
(including car derived vans and motorcycles) 30 50 60 60
Buses and coaches
(not exceeding 12 metres in overall length) 30 50 60 70
Goods vehicles
(not exceeding 7.5 tonnes maximum laden weight) 30 50 60 70+
Goods vehicles
(exceeding 7.5 tonnes maximum laden weight) 30 40 50 60
These are the national speed limits and apply to all roads unless signs show otherwise
* The 30 mph limit applies to all traffic on all roads in England and Wales (only Class C and unclassified roads in Scotland) with street lighting unless signs show otherwise)
+ 60 if articulated or towing a trailer
15 July 2007 | 12:51 AM
#84
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911 - If I understand correctly, you have now been back to the road and ascertained it has no speed limit signs and is therefore a 70 mph limit. If this is right, you do not need to ascertain your speed. Do NOT go down this route.
The ticket is wrong. You have been served with a Notice of Intended Prosecution with incorrect details. This is the very first thing anyone facing a speeding or other traffic charge should do with great care and in great detail. [Part of my registration number was once recorded as RPW instead of RBW for example, so no case because it was not my car but I only spotted it as I was about to accept the ticket!]
You do NOT need to concern yourself about anything else other than the officer's error. The fact that the ticket is wrong is sufficent for it to be cancelled - full stop.
By questioning your speed, you are giving the police another bite at the cherry! So focus solely on the error. Assemble your evidence - someone in the passenger seat taking a video showing the signage on the road from the last obvious speed limit sign to the roundabout where you were pulled should do the trick.
Then get a solicitor and get him to ask for the ticket to be cancelled. Don't try and do it by yourself.
Good luck.
The ticket is wrong. You have been served with a Notice of Intended Prosecution with incorrect details. This is the very first thing anyone facing a speeding or other traffic charge should do with great care and in great detail. [Part of my registration number was once recorded as RPW instead of RBW for example, so no case because it was not my car but I only spotted it as I was about to accept the ticket!]
You do NOT need to concern yourself about anything else other than the officer's error. The fact that the ticket is wrong is sufficent for it to be cancelled - full stop.
By questioning your speed, you are giving the police another bite at the cherry! So focus solely on the error. Assemble your evidence - someone in the passenger seat taking a video showing the signage on the road from the last obvious speed limit sign to the roundabout where you were pulled should do the trick.
Then get a solicitor and get him to ask for the ticket to be cancelled. Don't try and do it by yourself.
Good luck.
15 July 2007 | 01:10 AM
#85
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From: Northampton
their ***** !! im tempted to contest a speeding fine i got ! i caught sight of the van and looked at my speedo and i was doing 60mph in a 50mph so i braked and passed the van doing 40mph, i get my nip in the post expecting it to be a 54/55mph but it has me doing 63mph WTF i would of had to be going at least 70 for that speed to register i dont mind holding my hands up to my proper speed but not some silly made up one
i dont mind holding my hands up to my proper speed but not some silly made up one Last edited by Ian Cook; 15 July 2007 at 02:01 AM.
15 July 2007 | 01:41 AM
#86
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From: Just beyond the limits of adhesion
Another consideration. Check the signs are in compliance with the RTA. Lots of speed signs have sprung up with fluorescent backgrounds etc. Anything other than a circular sign with a red border, white background and black lettering is not an authorised and approved sign and thus the limit change does not exist. They will I'm sure amend the RTA to include these signs eventually as lots of people are getting off due to them, and it will be cheaper than replacing the signs.
15 July 2007 | 05:39 AM
#87
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911 - As Noobyscoobie points out, if the information on the NIP is incorrect, they cannot proceed. If you can prove the limit is anything other than 60 (as stated on NIP) the ticket would be invalid.
Beware though, when you were invited in the back of the police car to view your alleged offence, make sure the road you are checking is definatley the one you have as he could have been following you for longer than you may have realised.
Beware though, when you were invited in the back of the police car to view your alleged offence, make sure the road you are checking is definatley the one you have as he could have been following you for longer than you may have realised.
15 July 2007 | 08:18 AM
#88
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From: Bridgnorth with the Steam trains
Graham I know that road well,was the Himley side of the Wombourne island where he clocked you,as the road only becomes a 60mph zone when it becomes a single carriageway after the first wombourne turn.(coming from the island) and the other way it changes to 40mph when you hit the Penn island.so as said by others you need to find out exactly where the "offence" occurred because it may well not be valid.
good luck mate.
good luck mate.
15 July 2007 | 09:43 AM
#89
Er - not exactly true. Assuming we are talking a case where the NIP has been correctly served to the owner of the car in the photograph, but the office monkey has written the wrong plate number on it, then all the monkey concerned needs to do is write a court statement saying: "In my NIP number xxxxxx of xx/xx/07 I wrote the registration number AB 02 XYZ. This should read BA 02 XYZ." The court will nearly always accept these - particularly when there's a photo to show the real reg number. They are usually called "further" or "additional" statements. Of course the force concerned might decide it can't be *rsed, or a smart (i.e. very expensive) lawyer might get the charge thrown out, but don't hold your breath.
M
15 July 2007 | 12:18 PM
#90
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Er - not exactly true. Assuming we are talking a case where the NIP has been correctly served to the owner of the car in the photograph, but the office monkey has written the wrong plate number on it, then all the monkey concerned needs to do is write a court statement saying: "In my NIP number xxxxxx of xx/xx/07 I wrote the registration number AB 02 XYZ. This should read BA 02 XYZ." The court will nearly always accept these - particularly when there's a photo to show the real reg number. They are usually called "further" or "additional" statements. Of course the force concerned might decide it can't be *rsed, or a smart (i.e. very expensive) lawyer might get the charge thrown out, but don't hold your breath.
M
M
As mentioned in another thread (something about traffic wardens and friends!), the officer may have put the wrong information on the NIP knowing the person could easily challenge it and get it overturned.