My experience with Mocom Racing £400.00 mapping.......
24 August 2007, 02:09 PM
#62
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24 August 2007, 03:37 PM
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If you have been mapping 10-15 Imprezas EVERY week, full time for the last 4 years and owned a JDM all that time yourself to experiment on..... then perhaps you would have.
I do however know when you started dabbling in open source mapping and that you were asking some very basic questions not so very long ago.
Andy
I do however know when you started dabbling in open source mapping and that you were asking some very basic questions not so very long ago.
Andy
Thats game set and match to Andy lol...
24 August 2007, 03:42 PM
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24 August 2007, 03:47 PM
#68
Slightly elaborated i feel.
Why is it, that that a thread like this always becomes a slanging match. A forced slanging match by that of the SN community. Someof whom are all to happy spouting info that they have no evedence to backup.
Wouldnt it be nice to all be face to face and lay down the facts and not all of this " my numbers bigger than your number" bullsh1t!!
Why is it, that that a thread like this always becomes a slanging match. A forced slanging match by that of the SN community. Someof whom are all to happy spouting info that they have no evedence to backup.
Wouldnt it be nice to all be face to face and lay down the facts and not all of this " my numbers bigger than your number" bullsh1t!!
24 August 2007, 04:04 PM
#73
24 August 2007, 05:20 PM
#74
J_sca001 - why are you so interested in a slanging match ?
We have already told you why your car's performance was not up to scratch... perhaps you cant cope with the fact that you made unsuitable mods (probably sourced from the wealth of experience of the Muppets lounge) before speaking to a mapper/tuner to see what THEY WOULD RECOMMEND. I am sure neither Zak nor Andy nor any other of the recognised tuners would have said "go fit the biggest headers/up-pipe that you can get".
I have not dealt with Andy but having been given advice by him (for free I might add) - the advice has been impeccable and I have followed it.
Zak quite often dissuades me from spending money on modifications (such as headers) that others, in particular those on SN, say are necessary to gain extra performance. I know that I am no technical expert on Subaru Turbo engines but these people that are spouting SN myths do not know or understand what they are talking about or have any factual evidence for saying what they do.
I always speak to Zak (and quite often other knowledgeable people) for advice on what mod is next on the list and more importantly why it should be on the list before doing it. Thats why the performance I get is well within the upper range of what can be acheived on a std vf43 and std STi internals.
Sorry to pick on you but you seem to be keen for a slanging match when really any criticism's should be aimed firmly at your buying decisions.
24 August 2007, 05:24 PM
#75
Its why I dont frequent here much - far more information (facts) elsewhere.
J_sca001 - why are you so interested in a slanging match ?
We have already told you why your car's performance was not up to scratch... perhaps you cant cope with the fact that you made unsuitable mods (probably sourced from the wealth of experience of the Muppets lounge) before speaking to a mapper/tuner to see what THEY WOULD RECOMMEND. I am sure neither Zak nor Andy nor any other of the recognised tuners would have said "go fit the biggest headers/up-pipe that you can get".
I have not dealt with Andy but having been given advice by him (for free I might add) - the advice has been impeccable and I have followed it.
Zak quite often dissuades me from spending money on modifications (such as headers) that others, in particular those on SN, say are necessary to gain extra performance. I know that I am no technical expert on Subaru Turbo engines but these people that are spouting SN myths do not know or understand what they are talking about or have any factual evidence for saying what they do.
I always speak to Zak (and quite often other knowledgeable people) for advice on what mod is next on the list and more importantly why it should be on the list before doing it. Thats why the performance I get is well within the upper range of what can be acheived on a std vf43 and std STi internals.
Sorry to pick on you but you seem to be keen for a slanging match when really any criticism's should be aimed firmly at your buying decisions.
J_sca001 - why are you so interested in a slanging match ?
We have already told you why your car's performance was not up to scratch... perhaps you cant cope with the fact that you made unsuitable mods (probably sourced from the wealth of experience of the Muppets lounge) before speaking to a mapper/tuner to see what THEY WOULD RECOMMEND. I am sure neither Zak nor Andy nor any other of the recognised tuners would have said "go fit the biggest headers/up-pipe that you can get".
I have not dealt with Andy but having been given advice by him (for free I might add) - the advice has been impeccable and I have followed it.
Zak quite often dissuades me from spending money on modifications (such as headers) that others, in particular those on SN, say are necessary to gain extra performance. I know that I am no technical expert on Subaru Turbo engines but these people that are spouting SN myths do not know or understand what they are talking about or have any factual evidence for saying what they do.
I always speak to Zak (and quite often other knowledgeable people) for advice on what mod is next on the list and more importantly why it should be on the list before doing it. Thats why the performance I get is well within the upper range of what can be acheived on a std vf43 and std STi internals.
Sorry to pick on you but you seem to be keen for a slanging match when really any criticism's should be aimed firmly at your buying decisions.
Bang on fella.
25 August 2007, 06:19 AM
#76
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Its why I dont frequent here much - far more information (facts) elsewhere.
J_sca001 - why are you so interested in a slanging match ?
We have already told you why your car's performance was not up to scratch... perhaps you cant cope with the fact that you made unsuitable mods (probably sourced from the wealth of experience of the Muppets lounge) before speaking to a mapper/tuner to see what THEY WOULD RECOMMEND. I am sure neither Zak nor Andy nor any other of the recognised tuners would have said "go fit the biggest headers/up-pipe that you can get".
I have not dealt with Andy but having been given advice by him (for free I might add) - the advice has been impeccable and I have followed it.
Zak quite often dissuades me from spending money on modifications (such as headers) that others, in particular those on SN, say are necessary to gain extra performance. I know that I am no technical expert on Subaru Turbo engines but these people that are spouting SN myths do not know or understand what they are talking about or have any factual evidence for saying what they do.
I always speak to Zak (and quite often other knowledgeable people) for advice on what mod is next on the list and more importantly why it should be on the list before doing it. Thats why the performance I get is well within the upper range of what can be acheived on a std vf43 and std STi internals.
Sorry to pick on you but you seem to be keen for a slanging match when really any criticism's should be aimed firmly at your buying decisions.
J_sca001 - why are you so interested in a slanging match ?
We have already told you why your car's performance was not up to scratch... perhaps you cant cope with the fact that you made unsuitable mods (probably sourced from the wealth of experience of the Muppets lounge) before speaking to a mapper/tuner to see what THEY WOULD RECOMMEND. I am sure neither Zak nor Andy nor any other of the recognised tuners would have said "go fit the biggest headers/up-pipe that you can get".
I have not dealt with Andy but having been given advice by him (for free I might add) - the advice has been impeccable and I have followed it.
Zak quite often dissuades me from spending money on modifications (such as headers) that others, in particular those on SN, say are necessary to gain extra performance. I know that I am no technical expert on Subaru Turbo engines but these people that are spouting SN myths do not know or understand what they are talking about or have any factual evidence for saying what they do.
I always speak to Zak (and quite often other knowledgeable people) for advice on what mod is next on the list and more importantly why it should be on the list before doing it. Thats why the performance I get is well within the upper range of what can be acheived on a std vf43 and std STi internals.
Sorry to pick on you but you seem to be keen for a slanging match when really any criticism's should be aimed firmly at your buying decisions.
Easy tiger, i wasn't being serious, just having a joke.I have asked Zak for advice and am very happy he knows what he is talking about. I have also telephoned Andy F several times and had equally as good advice.
I'm sure both parties are equally confident enough with their ability as realise i am only jesting.
25 August 2007, 09:49 AM
#78
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I have sorted the problem with Zak. If you need/want to know anymore then please send Zak a PM.
25 August 2007, 10:19 AM
#79
PowerStation were doing a dyno run for me so i could compare road figures with rolling road. They said there was no point doing a full run due to the map not coming back up to 16 after being mapped. However in the short run they did the dyno machine showed figures similar to Zaks.
I have sorted the problem with Zak. If you need/want to know anymore then please send Zak a PM.
I have sorted the problem with Zak. If you need/want to know anymore then please send Zak a PM.
My thoughts are something has been changed whist the car was on the rollers to reduce the IAM to 8.
No point doing a full run? If it didnt do a full run, how did it make the numbers???
25 August 2007, 10:41 AM
#80
and what is a short run ?
On the dyno a 'run' is a 'run' - there is no short or long. That would involve manipulating load / ramp rates to get whatever figures they wanted.
I fail to believe it was at 8 when it got to PS unless you had even more problems with your car such as further split hoses, pipes, oil loss, coolant loss etc.
On the dyno a 'run' is a 'run' - there is no short or long. That would involve manipulating load / ramp rates to get whatever figures they wanted.
I fail to believe it was at 8 when it got to PS unless you had even more problems with your car such as further split hoses, pipes, oil loss, coolant loss etc.
25 August 2007, 11:00 AM
#82
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Cut n paste from Ecutek website ....
This article isn't all encompassing and is a basic overview of how a very complex system works.
Coarse Ignition Learning
When the grade of fuel is unknown, the ECU starts by running timing for a medium octane fuel. I.e. Values from the base map plus half of values from the advance maps. The ECU will then listen for knock. Based on its presence or absence, the ECU will then slowly decrease or increase the proportion of the advance map which is added to the base map until the level of knock is at a safe level. Its goal is to add the highest proportion of the advance map wherever possible. DeltaDash allows this 'proportion' factor to be viewed live as the ECU learns optimal timing - this parameter is labelled 'Advance Multiplier' (IAM) in DeltaDash and its value ranges from 0 to 16. It is the number of sixteenths of the advance map that the ECU is willing to use - 16 being good, 8 being neutral and 0 being very bad.
Criteria for learning Ignition learning does not happen all the time. The ECU must fulfil certain criteria, such as coolant temperature, engine speed and load before learning with occur. Some fault codes will also inhibit or completely disable ignition learning, so they should be checked for before tuning begins.
The state of the advance multiplier determines the coarse ignition correction to be used across the entire load and rev range. Obviously this may not be optimal, since it may be better to run slightly more timing in some areas, and slightly less timing in others - this is where fine learning comes into play.
Fine Ignition Learning
Once an overall (coarse) ignition learning factor (IAM) has been determined, the ECU begins to fine tune the timing. In contrast to the single blanket value of coarse ignition correction, the fine correction is stored as an 8x8 table totalling 64 values. This allows the ECU to tailor the timing in 64 separate areas of load and rpm. However, if the ECU is given sufficiently good quality fuel, the advance multiplier will hit its maximum value of 16 and will therefore use the full value from the correction map i.e. once the correction map hits its end stops, it is not possible to advance the timing further using fine learning.
For optimum timing, it is important that the base and correction maps are the correct shape. Base should correspond to low octane and full addition should be used for high octance. When adjusting the values in these maps, tuners will be treat the maps as a whole, as opposed to working on particular RPM/load areas. This is important since coarse ignition correction is applied across the whole RPM/load range. If the ECU is able to add 50% of the correction map at 3000 revs, then it should be able to add the same proportion of the correction map at 5000 revs. If this is not the case then the maps are not of the correct profile or shape, and the ignition learning process will not work efficiently.
.................................................. .................................................. ...
Active Ignition Timing
This article isn't all encompassing and is a basic overview of how a very complex system works.
Coarse Ignition Learning
When the grade of fuel is unknown, the ECU starts by running timing for a medium octane fuel. I.e. Values from the base map plus half of values from the advance maps. The ECU will then listen for knock. Based on its presence or absence, the ECU will then slowly decrease or increase the proportion of the advance map which is added to the base map until the level of knock is at a safe level. Its goal is to add the highest proportion of the advance map wherever possible. DeltaDash allows this 'proportion' factor to be viewed live as the ECU learns optimal timing - this parameter is labelled 'Advance Multiplier' (IAM) in DeltaDash and its value ranges from 0 to 16. It is the number of sixteenths of the advance map that the ECU is willing to use - 16 being good, 8 being neutral and 0 being very bad.
Criteria for learning Ignition learning does not happen all the time. The ECU must fulfil certain criteria, such as coolant temperature, engine speed and load before learning with occur. Some fault codes will also inhibit or completely disable ignition learning, so they should be checked for before tuning begins.
The state of the advance multiplier determines the coarse ignition correction to be used across the entire load and rev range. Obviously this may not be optimal, since it may be better to run slightly more timing in some areas, and slightly less timing in others - this is where fine learning comes into play.
Fine Ignition Learning
Once an overall (coarse) ignition learning factor (IAM) has been determined, the ECU begins to fine tune the timing. In contrast to the single blanket value of coarse ignition correction, the fine correction is stored as an 8x8 table totalling 64 values. This allows the ECU to tailor the timing in 64 separate areas of load and rpm. However, if the ECU is given sufficiently good quality fuel, the advance multiplier will hit its maximum value of 16 and will therefore use the full value from the correction map i.e. once the correction map hits its end stops, it is not possible to advance the timing further using fine learning.
For optimum timing, it is important that the base and correction maps are the correct shape. Base should correspond to low octane and full addition should be used for high octance. When adjusting the values in these maps, tuners will be treat the maps as a whole, as opposed to working on particular RPM/load areas. This is important since coarse ignition correction is applied across the whole RPM/load range. If the ECU is able to add 50% of the correction map at 3000 revs, then it should be able to add the same proportion of the correction map at 5000 revs. If this is not the case then the maps are not of the correct profile or shape, and the ignition learning process will not work efficiently.
.................................................. .................................................. ...
Active Ignition Timing
Last edited by Andy.F; 25 August 2007 at 11:59 AM.
25 August 2007, 12:08 PM
#83
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Theres no way you managed to drive all the way to powerstation with the IAM not coming back up to 16.
My thoughts are something has been changed whist the car was on the rollers to reduce the IAM to 8.
No point doing a full run? If it didnt do a full run, how did it make the numbers???
My thoughts are something has been changed whist the car was on the rollers to reduce the IAM to 8.
No point doing a full run? If it didnt do a full run, how did it make the numbers???
I did not change anything.
I drove back 120+ miles and drove it around for several days before going to PowerStation.
They,in the past, have gone through the gears and then from low revs in a high gear done the run on the rollers. They have then done the same again and printed the last dyno reading. On this ocassion,they only did one short run then i was told it was only reading 8 on the IAM and that it was not worth doing it again until sorted as i was never going to get a good reading when the IAM was only giving 8 on the IAM. I Was told to go back to Zak, which i did. Zak was veryful and sorted it to my satisfaction.
25 August 2007, 04:29 PM
#84
I am no mechanic.
I did not change anything.
I drove back 120+ miles and drove it around for several days before going to PowerStation.
They,in the past, have gone through the gears and then from low revs in a high gear done the run on the rollers. They have then done the same again and printed the last dyno reading. On this ocassion,they only did one short run then i was told it was only reading 8 on the IAM and that it was not worth doing it again until sorted as i was never going to get a good reading when the IAM was only giving 8 on the IAM. I Was told to go back to Zak, which i did. Zak was veryful and sorted it to my satisfaction.
I did not change anything.
I drove back 120+ miles and drove it around for several days before going to PowerStation.
They,in the past, have gone through the gears and then from low revs in a high gear done the run on the rollers. They have then done the same again and printed the last dyno reading. On this ocassion,they only did one short run then i was told it was only reading 8 on the IAM and that it was not worth doing it again until sorted as i was never going to get a good reading when the IAM was only giving 8 on the IAM. I Was told to go back to Zak, which i did. Zak was veryful and sorted it to my satisfaction.
25 August 2007, 05:18 PM
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25 August 2007, 07:55 PM
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26 August 2007, 04:58 PM
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