Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

I am pretty sure he will get his cumupance when he is released, he will constantly be looking over his shoulder for as long as he lives in the UK, somebody will get him sometime, maybe not immediately but soon enough.

He would be better off leaving the UK for his own safety to a country where nobody knows him and the police carry big guns and take no shi1t

The Zohan

Paul - you're letting your dail mail tinted spectacles get the better of you .

The guy was 6 when he was brought here - and he was essentially drug up as a british POS.

He should be hung - not released and sent back to Italy - where he would be free to return to the UK as he would still be a European murdering little ****.[/QUOTE]


Never read the Daily Mail, to left wing, wishy-washy for me

If that refers to my source let's just say he is a serving officer in an armed respose unit in London and i trust his views.

I just do not see it - why the 'bleeding hearts' take up and champion causes like this, i wonder if they would be so keen if he had brutally murdered thier husband/wife/child.

PeteBrant

It's got nothign to do with being a "bleeding heart". I just don;t see why we should be able to dump this problem on Italy.

Why should they have to put up with him? Because he was born there? Sorry, doesn't wash.

mart360

Prehaps if he was serving a LIFE sentance, then there wouldnt be an uproar...


If i recall Gruinyard (SP) is still free,

perfect place for tent city wouldnt you say


Mart

The Zohan

Actually the bleeding heart was not aimed at you Peter.

Ok then, at what point did he become the UK's probelm and not Italy's - where would you draw the line and would this line be the same for all people coming to and wanting UK citizenship?

Would you for instance deport someone who had been in the UK for 2 years, got thier citizenship and who commited and found guilty of rape, served 8 years for said rape.

PeteBrant

Yup...


If Chindamo wasn't 5 when he came to this country, If he hadn't lived here 10 years before he commited the crime, if he wasn't for all intents an purposes a British citizen, then I would want him deported. As it stands all these factors make him as British as you or I, and unless you are going to start deporting anyone you don't fancy having in the country, then you have to take responsibility for your own citizens, of which Chindamo is undoubtably one.

He came through the British education system, from start to finish, he was raisied in this country from any meaningful age until he commited the crime. He was under the jurisdiction of British social services and police.

Even Lawrences' widow said on Radio 4 this morning, that if she were one of the judges, she could not come to any other conclusion than to not deport Chindamo.


It is Britain that should take responsibility for the actions of one of its citizens, not palm them off on the country of his birth because it suits them. If he was 27 and had been here a year, then of course, it is a completely different case.

The Zohan

How odd, you must have got a BBC station to me Peter

Straight from the BBC
BBC NEWS | England | London | Lawrence killer a 'present risk'

Quote
Mr Lawrence's widow, Frances, said she has been devastated by the ruling of
the tribunal, having been led to believe Chindamo would be deported.

She said: "He took away my husband's life, thereby destroying one of the tenets of the Human Rights Act.

"And yet he is using it to pick and choose how he wants to live his life."



Here, here Mrs Lawrence!

PeteBrant

Well, did you listen to the radio 4 interview, or not?

Government to challenge Lawrence killer deportation decision | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited

mart360

Is he on a british passport, or an Italian one...


if its the latter, then he,s italian, and should be deported regardless of time spent in this country etc..

I've worked with loads of people who have grown up in the uk, but came here years ago. if you ask them there nationality, they always state that there American, German etc. (ie there native country is not UK)

If he wanted to be British he,d have taken citizenship, not kept his old passport.

If however he has dual nationality, they all we have to do is revoke his British passport, and declare him persona non Grata..

thats not infringing his human rights at all

job done

Mart

The Zohan

Ah Peter, nice quote you chose, let's have a look at the complete text shall we so that comment can be seen in its true context rather than the itty-bitty bit you picked out

IMHO the whole episode is a sad joke for the following reasons

1) POS murdered Peter Lawrence head trying to defend a child and only serves this short jail term, should have been life meaning life.
2) POS is then allowed to stay in the UK where as he should be deported back to Italy.
3) POS's chances of employment (in the UK) are slim to say the least so is likley to sponge off of the state and system. He has contributed nothing to the UK except killing one of its citizens and will now have the opportunity to take all the benefits he will be due. That is just plain wrong IMHO.
4) One final smack in the face to the Lawrences.



News article - word for word
The government will "very vigorously" appeal against an immigration tribunal decision to allow the killer of the London headteacher Philip Lawrence to remain in the UK after he is released from prison, the justice secretary, Jack Straw, said today.
Mr Straw denied that ministers had misled Lawrence's widow, Frances, who said this morning she had "always been given the impression" Learco Chindamo would be deported to Italy after he had been freed. Mrs Lawrence said she understood the tribunal's decision to allow Chindamo's appeal against deportation, given the terms of human rights legislation, but she added that the move had left her "utterly devastated".


Article continues

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"What I don't understand, and what makes me so depressed, is how the Human Rights Act, which I've always been a staunch advocate of ... [has] allowed someone who destroyed a life to pick and choose how he wants to live his," she told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.
The Conservative leader, David Cameron, called for the Human Rights Act, introduced into British law in 1998, to be repealed, saying the tribunal's decision "flies in the face of common sense".

"It is a shining example of what is going wrong in our country," Mr Cameron told the BBC.

"He is someone who has been found guilty of murder and should be deported back to his country ... What about the rights of Mrs Lawrence or the victim?"

Chindamo, now 26, who came to Britain from Italy with his family at the age of six, is serving a life sentence for stabbing Lawrence to death outside the headteacher's school in Maida Vale, north London, in 1995. His 12-year minimum prison term is due to end next year.

Lawrence, 48, was killed as he tried to defend a 13-year-old pupil whom Chindamo and several other boys were attacking outside St George's Roman Catholic comprehensive.

Chindamo - whose mother is Filipino and father Italian and who remains an Italian national - was part of a gang whose members were linked to other crimes, including a near-fatal stabbing and a rape.

A summary of the Asylum and Immigration Tribunal's ruling from Chindamo's hearing on March 17, not yet formally released, reveals his appeal was upheld both under the Human Rights Act and also other EU laws on the rights of foreign nationals.

The 33-page document, heavy with complex legal argument, shows the tribunal ruled that the home secretary's decision to deport Chindamo was not "proportionate" with regulations on deporting EU nationals within the bloc which state, among other factors, that those sent home must represent a "genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat" to society.

The tribunal also decided that sending Chindamo to a country where he has no ties or support and does not speak the language would breach article 8 of the Human Rights Act, connected to the right to a family life.

A leading human rights lawyer said it seemed "unlikely" the government's appeal would succeed.

"There are some ground for appeal, but equally, Chindamo's lawyers can appeal against other grounds against his deportation that weren't allowed," he said, asking not to be named.

Mrs Lawrence said today she was most upset by the "wider picture" implied by the fact that the judges appeared simply to be following the law in refusing Chindamo's deportation.

"I totally understand that, and I think possibly, if I was one of three judges, I would have come to the same decision," she said.

"I think it's the fact that, again and again, this highlights that the voices of ordinary people don't become part of the equation when these laws are considered."

The decision had come as a complete shock, she said. "We have always been given the impression that he would be deported. That was part of the whole justice system for me."

Mr Straw, who was shadow home secretary at the time of the crime and home secretary for four years from 1997, denied Mrs Lawrence had been misled and said he had offered to meet her later today.

"She was entirely right to say that was her expectation," he told Today. "It was mine, too."

The government would be "very vigorously appealing", he said, adding: "This was not our expectation, that this man would be open to live in this country when he was released.

"We are absolutely on Mrs Lawrence's side. We have to, however, await the process of the law.

"I want to talk to her about her feelings in this case. I want to assure her of the government's full backing."

Chindamo's solicitor, Nigel Leskin, said yesterday it would be "disproportionate" to deport his client because he had no connections with Italy and did not even speak the language. He said Chindamo was a reformed character who was unlikely to offend again.

"He was involved in a gang when he was young. He was a kid trying to act up big. He was out of control and he thought he knew everything. He now realises how wrong he was.

"He has spent time in prison speaking to other people who have come in - younger people, quite often, who he sees have committed offences of violence, trying to tell them how stupid they are, they shouldn't throw their lives away like he has thrown his away."

PeteBrant

What are you getting at? I mean I said that Mrs Lawrence had said on Radio 4 that she would have come to the same conclusion as the judges, something you seemed not to beleive, made evident with the comment

"How odd, you must have got a [different] BBC station to me"

You obviously didn't listen to the interview yesterday, or you would have known this is exactly what she said.

I was simply giving you a link to the comment she made.

Not sure why you have posted the entire article when people are quite capable of clicking on the link...


Most odd.

The Zohan

Odd is championing the cause of this POS Peter.

I copied the article as you chose to pick out just one part in which Mrs Lawrence agreed with the judges on thier verdict, you chose not to print her feelings and the efect it has had on her.
That seems 'odd' to me

It may well be the law of this sorry land and may be the Human Rights act to the letter but is it right, NO it is not and yes it does send out the message - UK is a soft target!

Peter and i am bored of saying we agree to differ so lets just leave it at that

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

So a thoroughly upstanding member of the community then, a real asset to British society!!!!

PeteBrant

Indeed. Little wonder his son turned out to be a killer.

The Zohan

Ok i lied about the last word, just this.

Oh and how the **** did his POS's father manage to get into the UK with his background in the first place?

POS was given the opportunities the Uk has to offer and chose to be a POS, he chose to kill and some people say he is British and deserves to stay here - ****ing bizzare if you ask me. Just because his father was also a POS does not make it right that he had to follow this path does it, what hope for anyone if you follow this logic and excuse.

Oh and please no more his parent made him come to the Uk its not his fault - i do not buy the poor 'ickle lad is not responsible & it must be society or his parents. Maybe we are all to blame and he is innocnent, perhaps he should sue for being bought to the UK and made to kill.

PeteBrant

I thought you just said agree to differ? I mean I can respond to this post if you like, it's up to you.

The Zohan

I removed the 'Peter' as that was uncalled for mate

I know that SN is seen as slightly to the right of the Neo-**** party but i do not see to many others standing up for POS and his right to stay. This is about what is right and decent.



Please respond as you see fit, free world an all that.

PeteBrant

No Worries


Firstly, I agree, the fact his Father was/is a nasty piece of work is no justification for how Chindamo turned out. But, it comes as no surprise.

I'm not standing up for "him", as much as trying to ensure that justice stays blind.

It is not because he "wants to stay" that I do not think he should be deported. I am not defending Chindamo. I am looking at this from a point of view of the law and the wider picture.

You cannot have one rule for a certain person, no matter how unsavoury he is.

The question is, why do people want him deported?

Is it to further punish him?

His punishment is his Jail term, once he serves it, he has "Paid his due". Whether you agree with the length of time or not, in the eyes of the judge that sentenced him, he has paid his debt to society.

The other reason I don't agree with deportation is because what on earth gives us the right to force this person on Italy? Why should italian society have to put up with him? He is a product of British upbringing, British schools, Briitsh infrastructure.

So you see, I am not siding with Chindamo, it is not some lefty crusade for a murdering arsehole. I am just trying to look from a wider viewpoint.

warrenm2

Pete - what do you think would be an appropriate sentence for Mr Chindamo?

PeteBrant

I;m not a Judge, and I'm niit in full possession of all the facts of the case.

At the moment, Murder carries a life sentence, and a minimum tarriff imposed by a Judge.

I do not beleive that a "life" sentence should mean you are locked up and the key thrown away, because part of prison has to be about reform as well as punishment - Otherwise, you may as well just kill them on arrival.

I think the minimum tarriff in this case was 12 years? At that point it is down to the parole board whether the person has reform and shows remorse for his crime.

Should an act at 15 means you entire life is ruined? I would argue probably no.

warrenm2

Well there you go - its out in the open now. Deliberately taking anothers life, by arming yourself, attacking a man who was defending someone by plunging your knife into his chest "means you entire life is ruined? I would argue probably no"

A wilful act of murder, argueably the worst crime a person can commit, and you are concerned with whether the murderers life is ruined. You disgust me

PeteBrant , a shining example of why this country is f******

PeteBrant

I think you need to take a less emotional, more intelligent and wider view of prison, it's purpose, and what you hope to achieve by it.

Then we can have a debate about it.

warrenm2

believe me, I have, which is why , I repeat, you disgust me.

Oh, and dont patronise me either

PeteBrant

Then don't act as if you are frothing at the mouth with outrage and coming over all "Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells".

If you want a to have an intelligent debate about prison and it's aims, start a thread and I'll chat about it with you.

Not sure how relevant it is in this one though.

Longjing

Jesus. He's not being deported because he's not Italian. It's not a human rights issue.

If people think murderers should be hung, well that's a point of view they're entitled to. The chances of it becoming UK law again are non-existent.

Sometimes this is a nasty corner of the internet.

warrenm2

Caring about justice is not "frothing at the mouth"
Caring about innocent peoples lives being devestated is not "frothing at the mouth"

Labeling people people who do care about such things as "frothing at the mouth" is simply a blatent smear

Labeling people people who do care about such things emotional and unintelligent is simply a blatent smear

Frankly I dont give a damn about your leftie views on prison, your soft on crime, purportrator-centric views of justice, your sneering outlook on people who are concerned about the state of the justice system, or your poisionous beliefs about right and wrong. However I believe in freedom of speech which means I have to listen to your blatent cr@p, just dont expect me to like it, believe it or to let your drivel go unchallenged

PeteBrant

So, I take that as a "no" for starting an intelligent debate on the prison system, then.

warrenm2

does your arrogance know no bounds?

PeteBrant

Look, Warren, you asked me what I felt should be an adequate sentence for Chindamo, to which I responded that I was not a JUdge, and did not have all of the facts of the case, and therefore could not make an informed decision. Nor can you.

I said I did not beleive in the death penalty.

At which point you have taken it upon yourself to launch into a tirade about how I disgust you and how I am soft on crime and have a perpertrator -centric outlook.

None of what I have spoken about suggests anything of the kind.

You are obviously spoiling for a fight - Go do it with someone else, because I'm really not interested. Like I said, if you want an intelligent debate, I'll give you one.

The Zohan

A subject like this is boud to raise a few hackles, i should know. Iw we start to chuck insults around then it could get locked or closed which would be a shame.

I for onew would rather see it debated, even if PB is completely wrong and a sandle wearing girl