Trout

iTrader: (1)

Les,

we have very different points of view and I know that we don't always agree. I respect your opinion and find your views thoughtful.

Your latest post is one of the dumbest things I have ever seen you post. I am truly struggling to reconcile your views.

I suggest you are the one in denial and I will only mention one example that demonstrates your House of Cards - Toxteth. No, I will add Bristol and Birmingham to that list. I am not in denial because I do not suffer from that aging disease, nostalgia.

Rannoch

Trout

iTrader: (1)

There is a strong link between the rise of Al Quaeda and the rise of Haliburton, a major arms and logistics dealer.

Haliburton are one of the most powerful businesses in North America that has strong links through to the Bush dynasty, a dynasty that was strongly supported by Thatcher and Haliburton and Bush came to truly blossom in the Gulf War, co-sponsored by the Tories. Thatcher's blood lust in the Middle East makes Blair pale into the shadows.

Haliburton was also linked to the Bin Laden dynasty which led to the disaffection of OBL who is the founder of Al Quaeda.

So, there are strong links between the Thatcher regime, both home and, especially, abroad, and the nascence of the supreme terrorist organisation.

mart360

So whats your stance?


you seem to have all the political information, prehaps you should be advising HMG?


Mart

Trout

iTrader: (1)

And there lies the rub.

Your suggestion that I need a 'stance' is flawed. If I had a stance it is that politics is ruined by the wanton need to have a 'stance'. What politics needs more than anything is informed choice that is not coloured by the need to be adherent to a stance.

Idealistic some will cry. Of course, no more idealistic than to imagine that a party political government can please all of the people all of the time.

In terms of advising HMG, I suspect they have far more information than you or I have to our fingertips.

Luan Pra bang

Sorry Rannoch but you are incorrect. Oil drilling and exploration is halliburtons main business and I have as yet never seen anything to suggest that they are involved in the arms trade. The links between halliburton and the Taleban (at the time the name Al quaeda had not been used in the west.) are tenuous at best and refer to an almost meeting between some people from halliburton and the taleban who were invited to USA to discuss oil pipeline and exploration possibilites. Once it was established what kind of regime the taleban was all discussions were canceled as politically the deal was not possible.
The other main side of halliburtons business is suport and logistics to forces in Iraq and they have been performing these roles for american forces since vietnam. so is hardley relevant. Linking Maggie Thatcher to halliburton and the Taleban is plainly ridiculous. Maggie had the same relationship the President as all post war british leaders have. I would also bet that Maggie had more influence on Bush than Tony could ever have with his son.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

I agree that arms are not a primary trade - I mis-spoke in my post - they do major on logistics to the armed forces as well as other major infrastructure programmes, especially those linked to reparations. Their history is oil and resources until the profits of logistics surpassed that of oil.

I have no idea why you are discussing the Taleban - that is NOTHING to do with what I posted.

Also, if you read the transcripts between Maggie and Bush Snr, there is no doubt that there was significantly greater influence had by Thatcher than Blair had with Bush Jnr.

Leslie

Your first point is correct and I feel the same way about most of what you say as well.

The riots you mention were for racial reasons and in many ways heavy handed policing in the extreme. Lady Sime said at the time of the Toxteth riots that those involved were right to do so!

I was talking about the present day disturbances caused by as I said "feral youths" who are creating mayhem and serious injury or death because they feel like it. My point also includes the lack of present day discipline for criminals and their murderous behaviour which is encouraging them to increase their shameful activities into eventual total anarchy. This is in my opinion due to the spineless attitude to these actions by the authorities and the PC minded loonies who cannot bear to punish anyone regardless of their criminal actions unless thay are law abiding citizens who are easy to punish and fine also! For some reason known only to themselves, they seem to hate decent minded citizens.

This has happened during the last ten years and is accelerating such that the police who no longer seem to want to get involved in protecting the public any more now admit to losing control of the streets! This is why I blame the present day authorities who have shown complete practical disinterest in their duty to protect the people of this country.

I will admit that I should not have said you are in denial, and will also mention my disappointment in your own ageist attempt at criticism of my outlook on life as we see it.

Let me just say that "nostalgia" is more applicable to those who are experienced in the ways of the world, and who are frankly not very impressed at the way it has gone in the present day.

Les

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Sorry Les, but to say this has only happened in the last 10 years is simply you wanting to conveniently pigeonhole the ills of the UK at NL's door.

The problems of gangs of disaffected youths causing mayhem has been coming for a long time and I would venture to say the roots of it lie in the changes in the social fabric of the UK brought about in the 80s 'greed is good' society.

Sure NL have fanned the flames in a big way, but to blame this problem solely on their term in power is at best naive.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Riots by their very action are about indiscipline and murderous intent. I see we agree that in both the historic and modern examples heavy handed police behaviour was a cause.

In terms of nostalgia, it is by it's nature a function of age. and I would change your definition slightly to being those that are experienced of the world who are do not think the world today is how we would like it to have been in our past.

Luan Pra bang

I personally do not see any reason for comparing the rise of halliburton and al quaeda or any real link between tham so I assumed you were referring to the tenuous links between the taleban and Halliburton. I don' really understand why you mentioned them to be honest.

Leslie

My point about modern day anti social behaviour is that it has become virtually a natural thing for these gangs of youths to do with no real excuse except to demonstrate their hatred of authority and their idea of manly behaviour. There were more positive reasons behind those earlier riots you mentioned.

Your mention about "nostalgia" and age is valid up to a point but one does not always have to be very old to gain valuable and significant experience. I do not wish to play semantics but will say that the manner in which you referred to it originally appeared to be an inference that I am very old and consequently my opinions are of little value in this respect. One certainly does not have to be very old to remember the days when you could walk the streets at night without fear and accidentally making eye contact with a youth did not mean the risk of being "staked"

F1 Fan.

I dont deny that this anti social and anarchic behaviour has existed for a long time to a degree before the last ten years, but I meant that the policies of the last ten years have done nothing to cure the problem but have in fact made it worse. If we want to maintain a civilised society, something positive needs to be done and quickly!

Les

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Fair enough Les and I totally agree with you, but your original post I was responding to didn't read like that to me at the time.

Leslie

Yes its true that I often don't write it quite how I meant it!

Les