Mandela Statue - Paliament Sq
29 August 2007, 10:35 PM
#32
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Mandela is a very dignified man that is borne far more of peace than attack, control and violence - much like that other opressed national leader Ghandi. It is us ex colonialists and Boers that went to take over, overthrow and hence caused and create violence.
It is a tribute to a wronged nation and race that Britain is big and moral enough to recognise the good in this man, despite the appaling wrongs that he and his people suffered.
I'd rather a statue of him than the other side - that violent racist scumbag Eugene Terreblanche. Each to his own though, I guess
D
It is a tribute to a wronged nation and race that Britain is big and moral enough to recognise the good in this man, despite the appaling wrongs that he and his people suffered.
I'd rather a statue of him than the other side - that violent racist scumbag Eugene Terreblanche. Each to his own though, I guess
D
30 August 2007, 09:55 AM
#34
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30 August 2007, 10:03 AM
#35
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i'd be careful using that description as it has always ignored natural shades of grey. a terrorist will concentrate on the indescriminate killing of civilians anywhere to further his political agenda using intimidation; a freedom fighter is the rarer breed, will broadly target combatant invaders on his own soil and avoid where possible the deliberate killing of his own nationals.
viz: al qaeda is a terrorist organisation whereas the french maquis were freedom fighters. baader-meinhof, terrorist; tamil tigers, terrorist; IRA, terrorist; afghan anti-soviet mujahideen, freedom fighters. one can make a pretty good case that the viet cong were freedom fighters too whereas the khmer rouge were terrorists. the taliban are terrorists as they kill and oppress indescriminately to further their own political end.
it's not perfect but i think it's an improvement on what is a misleading and glib cliche.
bin laden has the odd accolade of having been both.
30 August 2007, 10:47 AM
#36
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can see both sides..... but why a statue over here???
who paid for it???
good job it wasn't a statue of Winnie!!! imagine the cost of that!!!!
lol
who paid for it???
good job it wasn't a statue of Winnie!!! imagine the cost of that!!!!
lol
30 August 2007, 06:12 PM
#37
And ignore the suffering that his organisation caused hundreds, and probably thousands if you include his fellow Blacks that the ANC terrorised into towing that organisations line.
All for the greater good though huh?
30 August 2007, 08:16 PM
#38
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It was only when all else had failed, when all channels of peaceful protest had been barred, that the decision was made to embark on violent forms of political struggle. The apartheid white incomer government left them no other choice. Compare to us helping chuck the similarly racist ***** out of other people's countries maybe?
And remember this man was jailed for TWENTY EIGHT years on trumped up charges of illegal exit from the country, incitement to strike and 'sabotage'
Still he bagged a Nobel Peace prize for what he has achieved so forgive me taking my lead from them rather than you! We should be looking up to such men not bitching!
D
30 August 2007, 10:31 PM
#39
This man was a senior member of an organisation which thought it was acceptable to blow up a Wimpy restaurant (among many other none-government or military targets). The ANC MURDERED black south-africans who refused to tow their line! How anyone can consider that to be acceptable is utterly beyond me.
And in actual fact, talks began after the ANC dropped their demands for a total capitulation of white south-african political activity, and accepted that an equal standing was the only approach that would work. As I stated in a previous post, the sudden drop in funding from the Soviet Union, the associated dropping in support from Soviet-aligned neighbour states, as well as military training and support from states such as Cuba, also had a significant effect in persuading the ANC to approach the negotiating table.
I'd look up to people such as the Dali Lama, not a terrorist with a very good PR campaign.
I am in no way defending the South African Government of the time, but to see people willingly ignore the activities conducted by the ANC annoys the hell out of me.
And in actual fact, talks began after the ANC dropped their demands for a total capitulation of white south-african political activity, and accepted that an equal standing was the only approach that would work. As I stated in a previous post, the sudden drop in funding from the Soviet Union, the associated dropping in support from Soviet-aligned neighbour states, as well as military training and support from states such as Cuba, also had a significant effect in persuading the ANC to approach the negotiating table.
I'd look up to people such as the Dali Lama, not a terrorist with a very good PR campaign.
I am in no way defending the South African Government of the time, but to see people willingly ignore the activities conducted by the ANC annoys the hell out of me.
Last edited by Prasius; 30 August 2007 at 10:40 PM.
30 August 2007, 11:10 PM
#41
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This is boring. Many years ago, when Mandela was still banged up, Royal Exchange Square in Glasgow was renamed Nelson Mandela Square. It's still called that, and nobody thinks twice about it
30 August 2007, 11:26 PM
#42
I read his autobiography whilst on a fly-drive holiday in SA for 3 weeks in 2003 and found it enlightening to say the least. I'd rather have a statue of someone with his attributes than, say, your average SN apartheid apologist. 
From his Wikipedia entry - he's not really hiding what happened is he?
Guerrilla activities
In 1961, Mandela became the leader of the ANC's armed wing, Umkhonto we Sizwe (translated as Spear of the Nation, also abbreviated as MK), which he co-founded. He coordinated a sabotage campaign against military and government targets, and made plans for a possible guerrilla war if sabotage failed to end apartheid. A few decades later, MK did wage a guerrilla war against the regime, especially during the 1980s, in which many civilians were killed. Mandela also raised funds for MK abroad, and arranged for paramilitary training, visiting various African governments.
Mandela explains the move to embark on armed struggle as a last resort, when increasing repression and violence from the state convinced him that many years of non-violent protest against apartheid had achieved nothing and could not succeed.[7][3]
Mandela later admitted that the ANC, in its struggle against apartheid, also violated human rights, and has sharply criticised attempts by parts of his party to remove statements supporting this fact from the reports of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.[8]
From his Wikipedia entry - he's not really hiding what happened is he?
Guerrilla activities
In 1961, Mandela became the leader of the ANC's armed wing, Umkhonto we Sizwe (translated as Spear of the Nation, also abbreviated as MK), which he co-founded. He coordinated a sabotage campaign against military and government targets, and made plans for a possible guerrilla war if sabotage failed to end apartheid. A few decades later, MK did wage a guerrilla war against the regime, especially during the 1980s, in which many civilians were killed. Mandela also raised funds for MK abroad, and arranged for paramilitary training, visiting various African governments.
Mandela explains the move to embark on armed struggle as a last resort, when increasing repression and violence from the state convinced him that many years of non-violent protest against apartheid had achieved nothing and could not succeed.[7][3]
Mandela later admitted that the ANC, in its struggle against apartheid, also violated human rights, and has sharply criticised attempts by parts of his party to remove statements supporting this fact from the reports of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.[8]
30 August 2007, 11:49 PM
#44
Why now? I expected they wanted the statue up before the old beggar croaked.
31 August 2007, 08:30 AM
#48
From his Wikipedia entry - he's not really hiding what happened is he?
Guerrilla activities
In 1961, Mandela became the leader of the ANC's armed wing, Umkhonto we Sizwe (translated as Spear of the Nation, also abbreviated as MK), which he co-founded. He coordinated a sabotage campaign against military and government targets, and made plans for a possible guerrilla war if sabotage failed to end apartheid. A few decades later, MK did wage a guerrilla war against the regime, especially during the 1980s, in which many civilians were killed. Mandela also raised funds for MK abroad, and arranged for paramilitary training, visiting various African governments.
Mandela explains the move to embark on armed struggle as a last resort, when increasing repression and violence from the state convinced him that many years of non-violent protest against apartheid had achieved nothing and could not succeed.[7][3]
Mandela later admitted that the ANC, in its struggle against apartheid, also violated human rights, and has sharply criticised attempts by parts of his party to remove statements supporting this fact from the reports of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.[8]
If you think that is acceptable in any form whatsoever, then don't come crying here if some Islamic fundamentalist group kills one of your relatives in a terrorist attack. I'll simply point out that in your opinion, we should stick a statue up of their leaders in Parliament Sq.
I respectfully request that you do a full search of attacks carried out by the ANC, and strive to fully understand the breadth of their activities - including their funding, external support, and wider political aims outside of the abolition of apartheid, rather than rely on a very euphemistically worded wiki entry. The ANC were quite simply no better than the Government they were campaigning against.
31 August 2007, 12:23 PM
#51
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I expect the Mandela statue will get nicked soon, and melted down for scrap anyway so no need for anyone to get too worked up about a statue of an ex-terrorist in London
31 August 2007, 09:53 PM
#54
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Are you unable to comprehend anything more than the actual facts or individual happenings? Apply some 'bigger picture', some humanity, geography, morality and maybe you will be less irrelevantly purely analytical in your views.
Do you applaud the genocide of the Zulus by us Brits in South Africa or is that just another cold historical fact?
To be so disspasionate is to be so out of touch, sorry.
D
31 August 2007, 11:15 PM
#55
In your view yes, but at least they were in their own F'in country FFS and not the oppresive, racist freeloaders they weere struggling against.
Are you unable to comprehend anything more than the actual facts or individual happenings? Apply some 'bigger picture', some humanity, geography, morality and maybe you will be less irrelevantly purely analytical in your views.
Do you applaud the genocide of the Zulus by us Brits in South Africa or is that just another cold historical fact?
To be so disspasionate is to be so out of touch, sorry.
D
Are you unable to comprehend anything more than the actual facts or individual happenings? Apply some 'bigger picture', some humanity, geography, morality and maybe you will be less irrelevantly purely analytical in your views.
Do you applaud the genocide of the Zulus by us Brits in South Africa or is that just another cold historical fact?
To be so disspasionate is to be so out of touch, sorry.
D
My version would have been inflammatory and would have gotten me infracted for sure, so I didn't bother.
01 September 2007, 12:19 AM
#58
As for those who don't like my posts - you think its okay to murder innocent people for the "greater good", because thats exactly what your saying, and your trying to make ME look bad.
YOU are the ones condoning the murder and maiming of innocent people. Not me.
01 September 2007, 12:22 AM
#59
01 September 2007, 12:33 AM
#60
Britain was an evil evil colonial regime, just look at India for an example. We exploited them to the max and placed no infrastructure whatsoever into the Country. Oh hang on yes we did and they are about to overtake us in gdp . Good job labour invested in the Nhs instead of investing the cash into holding onto the empire or else we would have 3 million on disability
. Good job labour invested in the Nhs instead of investing the cash into holding onto the empire or else we would have 3 million on disability