f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Not sure what your problem is here. You have interpreted my posts incorrectly and I am merely trying to explain my stance. Maybe I wasn't clear, maybe you didn't read them properly .. who knows, but no need to start chucking your toys out of the pram.

Pssst It's just an Internet forum and a bit of fun so let's not take it too seriously eh?

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Exactly, they exist, but whether they contain anything at all relevant to the Ferrari documentation is very open to question. If this is the 'further evidence' the FIA are relying on then I think they are on seriously dodgy ground.

bugeyeandy

It would be nice to see the Ferrari team go a whole season without cheating, throwing allegations or chucking the FIA a bung to get a few points.
You either win on merit or you really aren't the winner. I will always remember Schuey and Ferrari for the wrong reasons.
I'm more and more convinced all this backroom stuff is just a charade to keep the public interested in what has become a generally tedious sport.

Markus

It is an interesting situation for sure, and I doubt this type of thing hasn't gone on before, and I'd say that Ferrari has gained from doing this sort of thing in the past, and anyone who is trying to make out they are pure as the driven snow is a tad foolish to say the least.

If McLaren are disqualified then I feel really sorry for Fernando and Lewis as they will be stripped of their points and position in the championship. I feel more for Lewis as he is doing very well indeed in his rookie season and I would rather like to see him claim the championship this year. I also feel sorry for the pit crew and other workers who toil for McLaren who will be affected by any disqualification.

I've always felt that the governing body of F1 seems to pander to Ferrari a little too much, it's as if Ferrari wasn't in F1, there wouldn't be any F1, which is just silly, but I can see where it comes from, as for most people, if they think of F1, they think of the bright red Ferrari's rather than any other team.

I'm not a Ferrari hater, true, I loathed Michael Schumacher, as great a driver as he may have been, he had to resort to acting like a spoilt brat who isn't getting the new toy, by cheating when the chips were down and he could not win by fair means.
However, I have great respect for Rubens and Felipe who had to play second fiddle to "the great one" at Ferrari, and at least now Felipe is out of the shadow of the cheat and I also think that Kimi is a rather fine driver.

For fans of racing the disqualification could be a good thing in a way as we'd see two top drivers going to another team, and I doubt they'd be together, so the battles would be even more furious, as there would be no team orders to impact things. There's also the "car or driver" debate, as we'd see how far these drivers could push cars in potentially "lesser" teams. I'd love to see Lewis and/or Fernando go to Spyker and kick Ferrari's ****, as would many people, it would show how good they really are, but I doubt that'll happen.

Odds on

I suppose getting the Italian Police to announce to Mclaren that their looking at prosecuting, just before Qualifying, had nothing to do with Ferrari being desperate to win at home?

The whole thing is obviously crap. I'm no fan of Ron Dennis, but I've got to say that his team seems to be falling fowl of some bitterness by Ferrari.

Sonic'

*cough* Bill Gates *cough*

Luminous

iTrader: (3)

So what is the issue people have with Ron Dennis, I thought he was meant to be one of the better team managers? (excluding current events)

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Just to clarify to all the Ferrai haters up above the spec for the F2007 and the team's working practices was in the hands of Coughlan, chief designer of McLaren, a fact confirmned by McLaren themsleves. Just so as you can ease back on the FIA consiracy theories a little. Also if the FIA were in the pocket of Ferrari this season at least do you not think draconian penalties would have been applied already at the first hearing instead of a 'guilty but no punishment' verdict?

And Markus of course spying and the likes has gone on many times before, but stealing the odd spy photo or having a good look at a competitor's car is a bit different to being in possession of their official design specifications and workling practices.

Here is a little story for you just to lighten the mood a little. In 1991 Nigel Mansell won the British GP in convincing fashion in the active suspension Williams FW14. Senna broke down and Mansell stopped on the parade lap to pick him up. Senna rode on the side pod of the Williams holding on to the roll bar as Mansell guided the car slowly round the circuit enjoying the adoring British fans celebarating his victory. Senna, however, was busy memorising every single label and button on the Williams steering wheel which he then passed on to his team who must have been Ferrari as they are the only team ever to cheat/glean information in this way

Brun

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What a load of crap. Are you saying that no tv camera got anywhere near the cockpit of said williams to provide Mclaren with any info they might want? In fact, what on earth could a list of labels and buttons possibly have given to another team?

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

The FW14 was the only car with a properly working active suspension, one of the puzzles was how much input the drivers had into the settings etc. what settings were in fact adjustable and just how adjustable they were. All answers which could be cleaned by looking at the steering wheel. Remember this was 1991 and TV coverage wasn't what it was today. Also remember Senna was no ordinary driver, his technical skills were second to none.

Read any of the proper in depth books on Senna as the story is recounted in full in most of them.

Petem95

That and the Citroen Xantia Active

bugeyeandy

That's one statement I won't argue with

Leslie

If McClaren go down the tubes-I reckon F1 will follow them a long way down as well.

Les

CharlesW

That's what's worrying Bernie. No action was taken last time because to lose McClaren and their drivers at this point would completely kill F1 as a spectacle.

Ferrari may want to win it year in year out, but nobody else does unless they are Italian.

No interest = no sponsorship.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Whilst there is no doubt McLaren had the doucments the initial hearing gave them no punishment as they couldn't prove they had used them in any way. The trouble is they left the door open by saying if new evidence comes to light then a punishment could be imposed.

The trouble is for the good of the sport we need McLaren in the championship and hence to dock them points or ban them would be a dreadful decision. Personally I can't see why the FIA didn't fine them heavily the first time and close the book. Everyone is happy. Despite all the posturing even Ferrari know that McLaren must be on the grid and hence I am sure they don't ultimately wnat to win the championship this way as it would damage the sport almost beyond repair.

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

F1 fan, you are trying to hard on here, although I do agree whole heartedly.
Everyone wants a fair sport, but nobody wants to accept that a British team may have cheated.
What I find most alarming though, is the recent fine Mclaren received for running an ILLEGAL gearbox at the hungarian grandprix.
It was a modified design and therefore should have been crash tested prior to racing, especially when you consider it is directly at the rear of the car and a fundamental structural device.

How they weren't given a race ban for that, i'll never know.

Regarding the 'spygate' scandal, it is a very sad case of affairs and someone is going to have to take a bullet.
However, I do agree with Ferrari about how Mclaren were found guilty of possessing ferrari data, but were not prosecuted.
If they didn't intend to look at the infomation, why didn't they pass it straight onto the FIA? BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T WANT TO!

CharlesW

This seems to go back to the beginning of the season when Mr Stepney of Ferrari contacted Mr Coughlan and informed him about two aspects of the Ferrari car which he regarded being in breach of FIA regulations. Specifically, he told Mr Coughlan about a floor attachment mechanism and a rear wing separator, both of which could be and were seen on the Ferrari car prior to the Australian Grand Prix. In other words Stepney blew the whistle on his employers.

The following letter from Ron Dennis to Luigi Macaluso, Italian President of the ACI-CSAI makes interesting reading.

F1: Letter from Ron Dennis to Luigi Macaluso - Pt. 1.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Yes the famous McLaren 'whistleblowing' letter.

Best thing when whistleblowing in F1 is to do it to the FIA and not a rival team though unless of course you have something else to gain

Patt@firstime

Where's that come from?

Did I miss something?

Markus

Was just saying that most teams in F1, past and present, have no doubt obtained a bit of sneaky info on a competitor to aid themselves at one point or another, and Ferrari would no doubt have been guilty of doing so in the past, thus if they are trying to make out they'd never do something like this is a bit rich.

It would have been interesting to see what would be happening if it had been the other way round, I think that would have spoken volumes for who Ferrari has/has not, got in their pocket.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

As I said before there is a bit of a difference between 'a bit of sneaky info on a competitor' and possessing the entire design specification and working practices of a rival's car and team.

Not sure what evidence you have got for Ferrari having anyone 'in their pocket' but please feel free to enlighten us!

EddScott

BBC SPORT | Motorsport | Formula One | Hamilton attends McLaren hearing

Should find out soon waht the punishment will be.

Odd that the BBC now feels Lewis is the only member of the McLaren team.

EddScott

Autosport website says they've been kicked out of the 07-08 championship

Hope they mean constructors.

Phil

Five Live saying the same

Nothing about the drivers yet!!

Schumacher

Yup, been thrown out of the 2007 and 2008 Championships.
Nothing yet on whether they've been excluded from the Drivers' Championships.

PeteBrant

If this is true then surely it will go to appeal?

ChrisB

Planet F1 says:

swampster

iTrader: (1)

There's nothing about it on ITV's F1, BBC News/Sport, FIA, Formula1, McLaren's or Ferrari's websites yet... perhaps autosport and 5 Live are jumping the gun a bit!?

FlightMan

Well if its true, thats F1 finished for me. The one year we get a decent championship, and its ruined by politics.

LanCat

It does look like Autosport jumped the gun. Let's hope it was one of many pre-prepared stories and someone published too soon.