swampster

iTrader: (1)

Because they aren't stupid.. they know that removing the drivers from the championship (which if everything is to be believed they really ought to be), would be devastating to F1 as a whole, not just McLaren. Don't forget drivers have huge sponsor deals with corporates that have massive investment in F1 as a whole, so they don't want to go upsetting any of them do they.

On the subject of the money, no they won't have to pay the $100m as a whole, but I think in the long run they will be paying substantially more than that.

The underlying problem is that F1 really isn't a sport any more.. it's simply a self perpetuating business model which makes me laugh when they talk about sporting codes etc. If all this is true, then its industrial espionage pure and simple.

exvaux

iTrader: (1)

so is that all points from now on going to be wiped as well ie no points for the WHOLE season,will make things interesting for the smaller teams cos im sure the prize/tv money is structured to the first placed manufactures down to the ones who get 0 points so with the likes of honda/toro rosso/super aguri and even toyota have a chance of picking up a point or 2 putting them in a better financial position next year,could be the thing the sport has actually needed

DaveD

iTrader: (2)

I find all this pretty amazing.

Spying in the F1 pit lane has always been rife. I seem to remember that the FIA were tipped-off by another team about Honda's magic fuel tank a few years ago - now how did they get to know that?! There are always allegations / challenges being put forward by teams about other teams' cars being illegal.

McLaren did not actively go to spy on Ferrari, but documents were handed from one member of one team to another member of the other team. As far as I know, there has been no accusation that McLaren bribed Ferrari team members to hand over documents?

I think where McLaren may have fallen down was in initially claiming that none of the information gained was forwarded on....it appears that something has been passed on, but whether that had made the slightest bit of difference to this year's World Championship - who knows?

At least Ferrari can sit smug in their garrage at the weekend now

swampster

iTrader: (1)

You know what really would be fun, and put the cherry on top so to speak.. if there was a massive pit lane brawl between both sets of team mechanics

VoteConservative!

why MB makes billions every year. 50 million is nothing to them

Markus

How does that differ from every other racing weekend?

unclebuck

Indeed. First season for some years I've taken an interest in, and it's been ruined by its own governing body.

Still, at least I have been reminded why I lost interest in this farcical 'sport' in the first place.

RRH

why on earth would the engine supplier / sponsor want to fund the fine???

oobster

Mercedes own a percentage of McLaren.

Bonehead

50% actually, Ron Dennis owns 15%, Monsour Oijieh (Of Tag watches) owns 15%, and someone from Bahrain owns the rest....dunno who!

There better be some pretty good clear evidence Mclaren have done sonmething that deserves such an over the top 'punishment'

Anyone can tell me this isn't some personal vendetta against Ron Dennis because he's been standing up to Max Mosely for years.

RRH

Fair enough, I wasn't aware of that.

Petem95

Exactly what I'm thinking?!! So they are guilty?.. but allowed to finish off the championship (because the FIA dont want kill off an exciting end to the championship?)

$100m dollars fine (well some fine and some lost revenue is how it will end up - either way they lose out on $100m) is surely going to dent the development of the 2008 car (gives Ferrari a nice headstart for 2008). McLaren budget is something like $350-$400m so $100 is a big hit.

Ferrari get to win the constructors now, which is what they wanted.

Even Jackie Stuwart has come out and said the FIA are clearly bias to Ferrari (has been pretty bloody obvious for some time!)

I wonder if plans for a breakaway series will start going again? I'd certainly back that.

RRH

from the McLaren website;

RRH

Ferrari International Assistance...

jaytc2003

iTrader: (1)

The thing is it could actually help mclaren financially. There is only the ferrari fanboys who think they are guilty etc.
the way I see it, everybody is going to be looking at next years mclaren closely, more sponsors maybe???? (if they think the same as me)

Also their 2008 car is to be inspected by the FIA to see if any intellectual property rights etc have been taken from the 2007 ferrari design. Now is it just me who thinks that this is a bit silly for the following reason

Mclarens 2007 car is slightly faster than the 2007 Ferrari car

So why would they design and use parts (at great expense) thats on a slightly slower car for their own car for next year, when typically the following seasons car is faster than the previous seasons car.

Also first race of the season, werent ferrari under a stewards investigation or something regards to a moving floor that they had? I am sure this was reported by both Renault and Mclaren.

scoobynewbie72

iTrader: (1)

Your not far wrong here if you think back not too long,
Ron and a few others wanted a break away championship (Ferrari stayed put)
And Ron was very outspoken then,Id still like to know how Mclaren can have used the info in July to change a car designed and tested months before,
The parts wouldnt just swap over from a Ferrari to a mclaren just like that, there designed for completly different cars so you cant just copy and plonk it on,
I too cant wait for the FIA`s actual report to find out what mclaren have done or are guilty of.

fast bloke

So they are saying - we have incontravertible evidence thay you cheated but you can still have the big prize because it would look bad if you couldn't. On the other hand, it will look bad if we stuff your constructor, but we don't care cos they give us endless gyp and Ferrari don't.

So far we have had Jackie Stewart, Stirling Moss, Murray Walker and Eddie Jordan claim this is a personal Mosley/Dennis battle. These people have nothing to lose or gain by speaking up or staying quiet, so I would tend to belive them rather than McLaren/Ferrari or the FIA

orbix

Well thats my F1 dream team knackered then.

Hol

iTrader: (1)

Im waiting to see the full and truthfull report on the hearing.

According the press reporting UNDER the headlines, it has not been proved in the hearing that MacLaren have used or benefitted from the information leaked from Ferrari. The hearing was all about the Wold Motorsport Council Imposing a fine/sanction on the back of the FIA findings.

The fine would appear to still be based on the rule requiring teams to 'adequately supervise their employees'. The Financial Services Authority here in England has similar rules for Banks etc...

What I would like to know is, why the same rule was not applied to Ferrari for not adequately supervising THEIR own employee who is guilty of the same collusion??? Its duplicity after all..

Hopefully, the reasons for this oversigth will come out in the future.


BUT, it is interesting to note that the World Motorsports Council has a lot of ex-Ferrari associates on its board. Funny how they came tho their conclusions then.

As I said in my first paragraph, I would like to know:

Were Maclaren (the team) found to be using the information.
Under what specific rule and situation WERE Maclaren fined.
Should Ferrari have been fined for the same rule.


HOL - waiting for the truth and not hearsay.

swampster

iTrader: (1)

Yep... That's pretty much it in a nutshell..

Don't forget to add Frank Williams to that list also..

Sonic'

i too am failing to see why ferrari havent been punished for giving the information out, other than stepney losing his job

bugeyeandy

As much as I don't want to see a Ferrari driver win the championship I can't help but feel that if the team gained an advantage and were thus disqualified then so should the driver. The driver is part of the team and has used an "illegal" car in that case???
$100 million is a vast sum of money , not quite sure where the FIA plucked that figure from either

bugeyeandy

Can't see why they would, they didn't gain an advantage by their employee doing so - unless this outcome was the plan all along and Mr Stepney was a patsy

Hol

iTrader: (1)

Nail and head.!


The quoted outcome in the press today, is that MacLaren have NOT gained an advantage.

swampster

iTrader: (1)

BBC SPORT | Motorsport | Formula One | F1's face-saving ruling

Is an interesting read, and sums it all up nicely I think.

I have to say I actually felt quite sorry for Ron Dennis last night when he gave that press conference.

Flatcapdriver

I can't see how the FIA aren't being stupid. I can understand their reasoning for not wanting to meddle with the Drivers' Championship because not only would the FIA be slaughtered by the media but the potential loss of revenue from sponsorship and television would cripple the sport.

However, you cannot on one hand accuse McLaren of cheating and ban them from the Constructor's Championship for allegedly having an illegal car without banning the drivers (Hamilton and Alonso) because they've benefited from the 'illegal' car. Its too contradictory and doesn't make sense - at least not legally.

Unfortunately, the size of the fine (only McLaren and Ferrari could financially withstand an amount of this size) reaffirms the opinion that this is Mosely putting one over on Ron Dennis as part of his witch hunt for Ron's posturing over the break away series.

What is it about the role of President of the FIA that goes to people's heads? Mosely has turned into an even bigger idiot than Balestre and he was bad enough!

Paul3446

Quote:

Indeed. First season for some years I've taken an interest in, and it's been ruined by its own governing body.


How has it been ruined, no-one gives a damn about the constructors championship, except the constructors themselves.

All that matters is who is World Champion and that hasn't been affected.

Leslie

Why are you saying that McClaren are using an illegal car-has that been proved?

Les

PeteBrant

Of course, but, the other factor at play if Forumla One as a whole, and that has obviously played a part in the punishment.

You need to penalise the team without damaging the sport.


I don't get the cries of foul play against McLaren. They lied. They told the initial inquest that they had not seen any details of Ferrari designs, and it turns out they had. Whether they used those deisgns or not is another matter, but had they told the truth at the inital hearing, perhaps things would have been different.


As it is, for the viewing spectator, the punishment has little impact, which is a good thing.

Flatcapdriver

Pete. That's not correct. McLaren did admit that some employees had seen the documents but that they did not act on them.

The FIA's position on penalising McLaren is quite clear:

'...to apply those penalties, the governing body the FIA would need conclusive proof that McLaren had used that information to their benefit, and the FIA says that did not exist...'

And that's from the original enquiry, which makes this decision even more baffling and still doesn't answer the contradiction of allowing the drivers to continue if they genuinely believe the car to be illegal.