Dave1980

it will be interesting to see the tension in this weekends race, certainly without informing the public of exactly what evidence they have against mclaren i can see they are going to lose a lot of supporters and revenue over this.
it does seem the fia is always biased towards ferrari.

PeteBrant

Ah ok, I stand corrected. I was under the impression that McLaren had said that Coughlan did not share the information he had with anybody at the company in the first inquest, but it subsequently turned out that he had shared details with much of the company hierarchy.

Sonic'

With Maclaren now having NO constructors points for the 2007 season, does this mean they will move to the back of the paddock and pit lanes for 2008 ?

simscooby

I thoght McClaren has sort of turned round the situation, well I mean for the last two games anyway. I mean the Hesky/Owen partnership is working and with the likes of Barry and SWP playing aswell as they are England look good at the mo.

Leslie

I agree with all that if that is all the information that was available to the FIA and they certainly do not seem to have enough grounds in law to issue the penalties that they have. If McClaren were culpable as they say then the whole season's gains should have been disallowed including those of the drivers.

It looks suspiciously as though the FIA have laid penalties in a way to do the maximum injury to McClaren with as little trouble to themselves with regard to the rest of this season. I wonder if it is down to personalities as has been said.

Les

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

That's the problem, I don't think it is fair to the sport to take away just the constructors points. If the Mclaren cars were illegal, or the organisation that produced them, acted illegally, then mclaren should be kicked out of 07, driver's included.

It might not be there fault, but what if they have gained through their teams wrong doings? Is it still fair to let them keep the points they earned in the those cars? Ofcorse it isn't. The FIA need shooting to be honest. They have quite clearly tailored this outcome to suit their pockets, not the sport.

Fantom

Is their points total reset to zero, or IS zero for 2007?
As if its only reset then the 4 races left will probably give them enough points to overtake most of the other teams!

Sonic'

I think it is Zero points for the entire 2007 season

So if they win every race and come 2nd too in every race does the team below get their points as though they never even raced ?

Fantom

Interesting. I have no idea. From what my colleauge says no one gets their points.

Markus

This is rather amusing (shamelessly nicked the link from a post by spider on 22B.com)

So what's the deal with 2008? Are they allowed to race if the cars are found to not be using anything that may have been gleaned from the Ferrari documents? Are they prohibited from racing in 2008, or are they allowed to race but will not score any constructors points, but drivers can score points?

EddScott

Theres no direct proof the 07 car has an advantage due to knowledge gained by Mike Coughlan.
Mike Coughlan had the information from Nigel Stepney who was pissy with Fez for their treatment of him post-schumacher
Theres no proof Ron Dennis allowed that information to influence the 07 car.
Theres no proof Ron Dennis knew Mike Coughlan had those details.
There are emails between drivers naming Coughlan as having Fez information.
Theres rumour, Ron Dennis found out about emails when Alonso said he had information that the FIA would be interested - and pop another 0 on the end of my cheque (or similar leverage)
Theres rumour it was Ron Dennis that told the FIA about the emails because he didn't want Alonso having something over the team and because it was the right thing to do.
The 08 car will be studied and if its found to have Fez inspired design, McLaren could be disqualified from 08 constructors.
Most people not F1 mad, don't realise theres 2 constructors so probably won't really give a damn.

Personally, its a bit harsh and I honestly believe Ron Dennis didn't know Coughlan had the documents until it was too late.

Markus

Reading this indicates that Alonso acted on information he was given by Coughlan and that Alonso knew where the information was coming from. If this is the case, then why not strip him of his points and disqualify him from racing? Not punished due to him giving evidence? Hmm, good excuse to use, and obviously he's not being kicked out as people would not watch the remainder of the season, so the money is being protected.

I wonder what Ron has to say to Alonso about all this, if indeed it is true. The article claims that Ferrari has said the information is very reliable, well, of course they'd say that, bit of a no brainer really.

Bottom line, this whole farce brings the "sport" of F1 into public's eye for all the wrong reasons. Regardless, I'm still going to watch the race at Spa, as it could be very interesting indeed.

Flatcapdriver

That being the case (from Markus' link) then it makes the FIA look even more conniving because the drivers benefiting from this information (Alonso from the e-mails, apparently not Hamilton) should have their points removed.

You cannot simply penalise the team and not the drivers - still doesn't make sense. Are we to assume that it why Alonso wasn't present in Paris yesterday and Hamilton wasn't?

Markus

I was going to comment in my post that it was odd that Alonso did not turn up and Hamilton did, perhaps it was so Hamilton could state he knew nothing about this, whereas they had, alleged, proof that Alonso did know and benefited from the information, and by him (Alonso) admitting this to the FIA he's being let off the hook. You'd have thought they would want Alonso there in person so he can personally comment on things.

Flatcapdriver

Dunno. But I've noticed Hamilton bigging up the team at every opportunity, probably in the hope that they'll favour him over Alonso the self proclaimed 'I've brought 0.6 of a second to this team, this year' which is always a good way of getting everyone else on side.

Nimbus

More news from the BBC..

BBC SPORT | Motorsport | Formula One | McLaren exposed by spy evidence

FlightMan

Bang to rights I'm afraid.

3.18 On 12 April 2007 at 12.25 Mr. de la Rosa wrote to Mr. Coughlan and asked “ can you explain me as much as you can, Ferrari’s braking system with the [reference to detailed technical information]? Are they adjusting from inside the cockpit…?”
3.19 After a number of exchanges about whether a description would be too
complicated to articulate by e-mail, Mr. Coughlan replies on 14 April 2007 at
14.40 with a technical description which purports to be a description of the
principles underpinning the Ferrari braking system. Ferrari have confirmed that
the description given is an accurate (though incomplete) description of the
principles of its braking system. Coughlan concludes with a statement that “we are looking at something similar”. This latter statement strongly suggests that the McLaren system was being worked on from a position of knowledge of the details of the Ferrari system, which, even if the Ferrari system not being directly copied, must be more advantageous to McLaren than designing a system without such knowledge.

3.20 The e-mail exchange between Mr. de la Rosa and Mr. Alonso dated 25 March
2007 at 01.43 also describes some aspects of the McLaren braking system and
states that “with the information that we have, we believe Ferrari has a similar
system” and goes on to describe highly specific elements of the Ferrari system
(which cannot be set out here for confidentiality reasons but which clearly
demonstrate knowledge of Ferrari’s confidential information).

Flatcapdriver

Strewth. That being the case, you have to wonder at the intelligence of people like Coughlan, Alonso and De La Rosa leaving a paper trail that long and so easily traceable.

dsmith

Doesn't take brain of britain to keep that sort of conversation out of mail and on the phone...or IM ;-)

If IM logs are admissable then i'm shafted. All sorts of dirty washing comes out on IM

DaveD

iTrader: (2)

So, there's 'proof' that de la Rosa and Alonso were actively trying to find out confidential information from Ferrari, but they get no penalty.
There's no proof that anyone else in McLaren used any of the Ferrari information directly, yet McLaren gets found guilty.

By the WMSC's own admission:-

Full version here

swampster

iTrader: (1)

So basically you've got 4 stupid greedy *******, Coughlan, Stepney, De La Rosa, and to top it off Alonso acting like total idiots, and the whole team gets taken down.. still think it's a bit harsh.

There is still no proof that McLaren per se knew Coughlan had this documentation until it was too late, and there's no proof that anything has been used in the cars and/or any advantage gained.

What should happen is Alonso & De La Rosa lose their Super Licenses for 12 months, Alonso stripped of his Drivers' Championship points, and also his Cnstructors' points deducted. In the interests of "team collective responsibility" I think it would have been fair to fine McLaren £10Million.

That quote by the WMSC above is a complete kop out clause... I reckon if this goes to civil court, that comment wouldn't hold much water.

dsmith

The more I read the more bizarre it gets. Alonso "knew" but escapes punishment ?!

From the bbc

But Ecclestone told the BBC: "It came very close to McLaren being thrown out, it really was a genuine possibility.

"A few of us sort of battled on and campaigned for the fine instead."

Had McLaren been thrown out of the championship altogether, it would have meant the end of the drivers' title challenges of both Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso. "

Had they thrown them all out - they would have lost a huge slice of the audience. Some of whom (like me) are only just returning after 5 years or so of pure boredom with the whole charade. But this verdict is just strange in every respect.

CharlesW

This all may have been precipitated by Alonso. After the Hungarian GP it is alleged that he threatened to reveal the e-mail traffic with de la Rosa to the FIA, if Ron Dennis did not elevate him to No. 1 driver within the McLaren team!

BBC SPORT | Motorsport | Formula One | Alonso 'will not leave McLaren'

But Ron Dennis called his bluff and spoke to the FIA himself about this e-mail traffic.

Fernando Alonso faces end of road over threat to blow whistle - Times Online

Petem95

The FIA said beforehand that any of the drivers who provided information would not get any penalty, assuming they did not hide anything. This probably goes some way to explaining why this [the emails] all came out.

Also as Bernie said before the last race, if this was Spyker and Super Aguri it wouldnt even be talking about it! I think spying/design copying has been a part of F1 for a long time - Ferrari wont be exempt from any of that.

Some articles questioning how on earth Hamilton could have not known about this information if it was being discussed by McLaren engineers, and he is said to be close to them and often discussing setup etc. He could be in trouble if it comes to light at a later date that he did know about this information, yet claimed not to to the FIA.

Leslie

Very interesting read, thanks for letting us see that. I also feel that Alonso and De La Rosa should get it in the neck for all that and that McClaren should be reinstated. Does not show Alonso in a good light in my opinion.

Les

scoobynewbie72

iTrader: (1)

Why dont Mclaren just hire Nigel Stepney now?

Bonehead

I like that!

That'd be great wouldn't it, it'd really get up Max Moselys nose

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Well I think the WMSC statement is enough to prove at least some sort of penalty was deserved althiough I think the one meted out was both overly harsh and not balanced.

At least after reading it there are probably a few contriubutors to this thread feeling a bit stupid now as it's not really possible any longer to say the verdict isn't without at least some justification.

Still a very sad set of events for the sport!!

Sonic'

Because he gives Team secrets away

Sonic'

Just read that this is also how this penalty will affect Mclaren

They will also have to spend more money next year on freight and travel costs because they will be the 11th team on the grid.

In addition they will find that instead of their current allocation of five garages, they will have two, and instead of their generous allocation of VIP paddock passes for sponsor guests, they will have a limited amount.