zip106

Fair enough.
I'd be foolish, you wouldn't.

CrisPDuk

If the kid had been on the surface, I'd like to believe that at least one of those PCSOs would have gone in, but he was nowhere to be seen when they got there, so IMO they made the right decision

It was just a terrible accident, I think it's wrong to be blaming the parents too
I know (or hope) my parents didn't know the half of what we used to get up to at that age, out of their sight.

What really makes my blood boil about that article is that **** Paul Kelly yet again using a tragic accident in pursuit of his own political agenda

bugeyeandy

Shame, I would have dived in and tried even if I couldn't see the poor kid but who's to say either of these PCSO's could even swim? They did exactly what you're supposed to do, can't be vilified for that.
The parents are obviously distraught but to lay blame for a tragic accident is uncalled for IMO.

wrx-kris

Are you a copper?

Snazy

Nope. Just bored of it always being the police's fault. People who just snap straight to the conclusion that because the police were involved, its their fault

Boy spits on the street, is nicked for it, says to cops "aint you got nothing better to do, go catch some real criminals"

Man urinates on the street, says to cops "aint you got nothing better to do, go catch some real criminals"

Boy nicks a car stereo, parents says to cops "aint you got nothing better to do, go catch some real criminals"

Man assaults another man and gets arrested, says to cops "aint you got nothing better to do, go catch some real criminals"

And so on.....

Whatever the crime, its never ENOUGH of a crime to be worthy of the polices time, so they are accused of wasting time.

Similar examples can be drawn up for most instances involving the police.

The Snug Rhino

errr...well done?

wrx-kris

No-one is saying it was their fault, just they could of done more...

Snazy

Without being there, can you say that for sure?
If you witness it first hand, fair play, but believing the media is a whole different ball game.

A merky pond, in which the anglers had given up trying to find the child too, 2 PCSO's arriving blind should have done more?

I disagree, but then thats just my opinion. Having become involved in similar incidents, there is a point where little more can be done. From the descriptions reported, that point was reached. IMO

The Snug Rhino

love to know what more could have been done? Lots of people saying "i'd jump in".....thats nice, but jumping in a lake wont help find a body on the bottom of it.

mrtheedge2u2

I don't care what people say, if I came across a scene like that I would of a) called for assistance and b) the second I put the phone down had a wade out and dive down to see if I could find/feel something..... there is no way I could of just stood there......

Yes, protocol says this and protocol says that, but if my child was drowning, whether they be bobbing about or submerged I would hope someone would jump in because I would do the same.

The Zohan

Lots of words like fooish and cowardly being bandied about.

It is easy to say what you would or would not have done sat at you PC and not on the lakeside with a half drowned girl on th bank and a boy drowning and out of site in the lake. Me, I hope i would go in to save a child and if it was my child i hope others would do the same.

My father saved a boy from a fast flowing river when he got into difficulty, he got an award for bravery, never spoke about it i only found out from a relation. He did rsik his life fo someone else he did not know, not sure what difference it make whether you know the people or not. I think it is something inside some people and not others.

Nothing to do with stupidity or selfishness just some people will put themselves in harms way to help others.

PG

Water rescues are a huge grey area with no one service willing to take the lead. The main reason for this is training which = money!
this is a situation that happened at my station. There was an investigation and talk of discipline over this! (see related links on right) Our orders state we are not allowed over our boots in water! They are now however ticking boxes by giving us 'water awareness' courses and puting throw lines and inflatable hose kits on each pump but to be honest we're just playing at it. I'm aware that other areas are different but it just goes to show that because of a pound note people you'd expect to be the ones to help may not be able to but as my mate showed the humanatairian side will (or should) over ride the 'orginasational robot' that some places want you to be!
Tam has been awarded the RHS medal and is shortlisted for the Pride of Britain bravery award on GMTV next week. He maintains he was just doing his job and we all agree we would do the same.....it's just that we're not allowed to and now we've been given the training we have the Brigade can wash their hands of us and our families if anything were to go **** up.
Each incident should be treated differently though and I'd hate to comment on this one not knowing the facts. The moral pressure these guys must have been under is horrible I can assure you.

The Snug Rhino

While thats a lovely the idea the chance of your actions saving the kid in this instance (who had been underwater since the call to the police was made) are very slim indeed - the chance of you adding to the casualties is very high. I am 6ft6, an excellent swimmer and ex-lifeguard....and the odds of me drowing in the bath are higher than the odds of pulling that kid out alive after he'd been down that long.

The lake was big, where would you wade to first? It was also 6ft deep....i cant walk across the bottom of a 6ft swimming pool....theres no way a normal height person is going to walk in 6ft of lake with mud and silt on the bottom - the only way you will feel the bottom is by swimming down there blind and feeling your way. Thats a job that takes scuba rescue divers long enough.....you, with no light, no wet suit and no air - not gonna happen.

The difference (in this case) between the "i'd go in" and the "i'd call for helps" is that the first group would get wet, nothing more.

billythekid

TBH I dont think they did too much wrong in this situation but it is a good example of why CPSO's are not working as well as they could, their training is below par and also the people they are taking on are often not upto the job.

Its hard to say what you would do or not as none of us were there.

But it is worth remembering that even in summer water will kill, a guy I had met, a volunteer fire fighter (Paul Metcalf), was killed trying to save someone in very similar circumstances, warm sunny day and a fairly shallow pond.... he was very fit and *was* trained in how to carry out a water rescue.. just the gear they had was not really upto the job. On the day there were 3 police officers in the water along with the fire fighters.

Having seen this I am now a lot more cautious around water, even on hot days. In the end the only way to get Paul out of the pond was by helicopter... and it was not much more than 6 ft deep in places.

You cant blame the CPSO's for not going in, but my own personal stand on this is you do EVERYTHING you can physically do apart from putting yourself at serious risk of death.

David Lock

Well done to your colleague, Tam. Unbelievable that the line broke Hope they don't send you on rock climbing courses with similar equipment...

I still think it odd that the coroner didn't ask more questions. I think if one of the PCs had been a reasonable swimmer then he could have gone in and floundered around the edges of the lake. Agree a thousand to one chance of finding the poor kid, let alone alive, but I think it should have happened. But I wasn't there so........

C17RPA

well i'm sorry...but they should of,or one of them should of went in!!! how the f**k could you just stand about and let someone drownwhat because they were not trained...go back and tell that to the mum and dad...(oh sorry we let that old lady get run down because we are not trained in that to!!!! whats the bloody point in having them on the streets then if there gonna keep comming out the with classic lines like that???????????????????

The Zohan

This does shine a light on the whole PCSO concept which will be uncomforable for the government.

We do not need PCSOs we need trained Police officers with less stupid unnecessary paperwork and more time on the streets where they are needed.

Police officers cost a lot more to train and pay than PCSOs so we get this half measure, neither one thing or another.

Thanks NL.


Several cops called into R5 Live yesterday afternoon and all said that they would not stand by in this situation. Most berrated the PCSOs in general and said they where a waste of time, not just in this instance but generally.

The Snug Rhino

and done WHAT!

they ae looking at a LAKE..there is NO SIGN of the body. Where do they start..just radomly dive to the bottom of a cold dark lake to see if they happen to bump into the body of a kid that would have been dead before they arrived????

This is NOT a case of jump in, grab person, swim out - you are asking them to perform a grid search of a lake bottom in their shirts and trousers...THINK about it!

zip106

errr...thanks?

David Lock

My take was that there were witnesses who had seen the boy struggling and would, therefore, have a rough idea of where he had gone down. It's not like it was a fast flowing riverbed and he could have ended up anywhere. But I wasn't there so this is just an assumption. dl

C17RPA

in a case like this you ask/shout were he/she was last seen (in a pond or lake with no flow or very little flow this where they will be on the bottom...so just for the record yes i would of gone in still and had a bloody good go in getting that boy out...with lakes and ponds mud/silt kicks up from the bottom jump in the middle of the dark cloud..9 out of 10 thats where they are on the bottom,,i'm a very keen carp angler (been there,seen it gone in,pulled people out!!!) if i could'nt swim i would'nt go fishing,and i tell you now i would not let my 8 and 10 year olds play on a lake or in it..still reather pointless going on about it really,R.I.P.

The Snug Rhino

Fair play, pulling dead people out cant be nice.

negri

has anyone read the full story ?

the fisherman pulled one to safety and couldnt find the other boy , they were on the scene before the police .

surely if they couldnt do anything then when the police arrived it would be too late to try save the boy .

if anything the fisherman should have tried to do more , how long was it before the police arrived to the boy disapearing into the water ?

The Snug Rhino

anything over a few mins and its pointless them getting wet - he was dead when they arrived.

Shark Man

Although I agree with the outcome of this case; as an employer you cannot force somone to risk their life; even to save another's

HOWEVER

I don't agree with that in a humanity aspect....Police or not, if you can swim well and see someone drowning..WHAT WOULD YOU DO? Good samaritan and all that.

Ok, my lifesaving tuition from school maybe very rusty but I'd jump in and damned as well try. Training or not.


And this leads me on a big issue why I hate PCSO (Police community support officers) with a vengence. With whatever situation they fail in, they constantly hide behind the excuse of "they were not trained to deal with the incident".

In every PCSO shortcommings that excuse is used. All they are good for is directing traffic and putting parking fines on cars parked for 2mins longer than they should have been...in other words glorified traffic wardens. Which is what they focus on; as most are too scared to come face to face with criminals or thugs...so hide and radio for backup (or turn a blind eye). :rolleyes

Now as cynical as that is, I have a pont to this: My issue is that their wage as glorified traffic wardens is taking away funding to what could be spent employing police offices that could actually have proper traning and have abilities to deal with more pressing matters other than illegally parked cars.

This may have not saved that lad, but it epitomises the uselessness and waste of public money that employing PCSOs aka "cop-out-policing" is.

negri

does it say in the article that the PCSOs could see the boy drowning ?

so the fisherman couldnt save him but someone who arrived on the scene many minutes after could ?

Shark Man

Read the bottom two lines

negri

of your post ?
even if it had been normal police officers all trained up that arrived first on the scene , if there was no sign of the boy . the divers would have had to be used .

so training or not , the boy unfortunately still wouldnt have survived

Shark Man

Exactly what I put:

The Snug Rhino

there is NO ONE that could have arrived and saved someone that disapeard from view BEFORE they got their. superman could have turned up and been as much use as the cops.

its a NON STORY...the obvious real story is why they were playing there with supervision.