Steve Whitehorn

iTrader: (13)

Standard viscous center diff 50-50 split
DCCD - More bias towards the rear. But can be set at any ratio.

See my previous thread for info on this

https://www.scoobynet.com/scoobynet-...d-driving.html

The Conclusion - DCCD can potentially make for the quicker car. You have to have set it up properly and know exactly what you are doing with it. Most people dont. For the few that do it pays dividends especially in a competive environment.

As a rule the 50-50 non DCCD set up is quicker and more predictable on the road. Unless you are one of the very few that has their DCCD sorted properly.

exvaux

iTrader: (1)

i was always told never to touch it unless its peeing down or snowing as it wil kill expensive mechanical parts,mine is ALWAYS left open

chris dt

iTrader: (3)

hi


you wont beat a type r for wet or dry handling!!!i have had 2 wrxes one a classic and now a blobeye with a type r in the middle and the type r wins hands down.i cant push my wrx no where near as far as my type r!!!!!

T-gro

You were told wrong, by someone who shouldn't be giving advice on the matter.

At the end of the day it's just a diff you can manually control. Of course, as with any plated diff, it will wear, but if that bothers you I'd recommend a car with a simpler transmission.

Bottom line is, if you want all the benefits of a centre LSD, you HAVE to use it.

Shark Man

Indeed, its this that usually makes the person experienced in RWD cars (especially with an LSD) a far better driver than one brought up on 4wd and front wheel drive cars....latter tend to be far too ham-fisted and clumsy with the throttle and usually the other controls in general. Because 90% of the timein a FWD or 4WD car it doesn't matter, but its these bad habits that get them intro trouble during the 10% time they go one step too far and thier lousy driving bites them in the ****....and thats where the men get sorted from the boys: A person expericed and aware of correctly controlling and knowing how to push a RWD with LSD in the wet hard whilst staying incontrol and maintainging 100% traction will never find this an issue no matter what wheels are driven- its all about nursing the controls....As to quote "driving a car, is like making love to a beautiful woman - anyone can **** the brains out of her...jusk ask Ron Jeramy "

500

Very true words said above, I wonder if the people that have the problems with DCCD are the ones with little or no RWD experience?

[Davey]

Far to many people also label RWD cars dangerous.. Which I find some what laughable, personally I feel a damn sight safer in a RWD or RWD biased car.. You have so much more control over the vehicle rather than the vehicle controlling you and if the **** hits the fan in a permenant 4WD car nobody's listening, just a case of ease off and hope for the best lol

T-gro

I don't agree with that at all.

I now drive an Elise, which is a wonderful (and easy) car to drive.

What is in no doubt, and no doubt whatsoever, is that, in conditions of low grip it is MUCH, MUCH more difficult to drive, and by extension less "safe" than any of the three Imprezas I have owned. Suits me though, as that challenge is what I wanted.

What you have to appreciate is that, with AWD, not only do you have four wheels able to deliver traction, you also have four wheels sharing the torque, which makes it easier to get traction from a low grip surface. Add to that, two (or three depending on your model) LSD's to help, and you have a car that excels in finding grip in low grip situations.

It's why AWD cars are used in rallying. I can hardly imagine Marcus Gronholm (for example) sliding his car through the gravel and dirt on the GB rally and wishing for the ease and safety of a powerful RWD car, can you?

JTaylor

https://www.scoobynet.com/drivetrain...tml?showfull=1

[Davey]

I disagree, the Elise will teach you to respect road conditions, yes an AWD car will not come un-stuck as quick but when it does come un-stuck you are in the hands of physics, theres not really much you can do other than try and settle the car by backing off the power slightly and being gentle with the steering..

Its like putting a cork on the end of a fork, you can still poke your eye out you just have to push it harder.

Just because a person can be more of a mongo behind the wheel of an AWD car doesnt mean the car is safer

I've spent most of my driving years in high power RWD cars and I feel so much more confident as they are far more predictable than FWD or AWD cars.

Phildodd06

I have no experience in a RWD car, only ever had and driven FWD cars except for my dads Hilux pick up i use, which is RWD!

T-gro

You are no more "in the hands of physics" in a AWD than a RWD, perhaps the opposite.

If, for example, you lose traction at the back in a RWD car, you have no other choice than to back off until you regain grip at the rear. In an AWD, you can (in the right circumstances) pull yourself out of a slide with the front wheels.

To phrase it slightly differently, in an AWD car, under power, the car will always try to go straight ahead (or wherever the front wheels are pointing)
In other words, an AWD will generate more forward (in the direction you are steering)motion at greater slip angles than a RWD.

You are not alone in feeling more at home in a RWD, with experience they are very intuitive (good ones at least!!!), but I think it's pretty hard to dispute that a good car with four driven wheels is going to be safer (or easier to control) in a wider variety of conditions than a similar powered RWD, and most particularly in low grip conditions.

mozzaITA

Be honest with you after 2 months with my Type R is felt alot safer in the wet than 10months with my Nissan 200Sx perhaps im not going mad in my impreza last thing i wanna do is crash it!

GROWLER_GRRRR

all this talk of awd being iffy im nt sure of the level of expirience but the way i see it is -

1, awd
2,front wheel drive
3 rear wheel drive

this is of course in the wet , cos we all should know there is little to no difference
in the dry .

your going to have your work cut out to beat a equal car in the wet .(awd 1#)
i still love the thought of the e30 in the wet sly as a box of monkeys .
everyone should own a rear wheel car if your interested in learning some level
driving skill .
get back to school if you think 4x4 are iffy they are an absolute doddle to drive .

[Davey]

If you lose traction in a RWD car, you can use opposite lock and power through the slide, or you can back off, or you can even use the slide to aid cornering... The front wheels STILL have full traction... In an permenant AWD your only option is to back off or you are going to end up in a ditch

I assume you've driven RWD cars?

From my experience people who call RWD 'dangerous' have had a driving career full of FWD cars and maybe the odd AWD.. And maybe once they got into a RWD car and it "bit them".. Its all about respect at the end of the day, a RWD car gives much better feed-back to the driver than an AWD car, it will tell you when its on the limit and give you the confidence to take it slightly over the limit where as an AWD car will just bite..

satancom

I have had thre rear wheel drive motors..

1978 XJS V12.. Lovely in the dry, but in the wet it would swap ends under braking/accelerating. I once 180'd it trying to come out of a junction very gently.. It was very worrying.

1997 Omega with LSD, great fun in the wet with the traction control turned off.. but infinatly more controlable than the jag

1980 Land rover 109". Has mud tyres on it and can be a little twitch in the wet, all that tourqe!

[Davey]

I run MT's on my other car, great for straight line braking in the wet as you get far more grip than standard tyres (in slippery conditions) but cornering in the wet... Yeahhhhhh hahhhhhhhhhhh ride'um cow boy!

T-gro

We're getting to that stage are we?

First off, lets make this clear: you are wrong.

The first misconception you have is "power through a slide". In a RWD car you DON'T do this. In a RWD car you modulate the throttle to ensure the rear doesn't reach an unrecoverable angle. In an AWD car you can use the throttle to pull you straight. Not always, but it is very possible, and very controllable in smaller slides.

You seem to confuse the fact that a RWD car is (arguably) easier to hold in a slide. Let me enlighten you as to why. A 4WD is harder to keep sideways as it will always try to power in the direction of steering. The rear wheels must power the car towards the front wheels, and the front wheels try to pull the car in the direction of steering.

This isn't rocket science, it's a well understood principle.

Finally (I hope), this idea of "full traction" on the front wheels of a RWD car confuses me. Firstly, AWD cars have ACTUAL traction, not just grip on the front wheels and secondly. why you seem to think that RWD cars will for any reason have superior front end grip during a slide is a bit of a mystery.

I love RWD too. I have one for God's sake.

What I do try to do, for my own safety's sake is appreciate the dynamics behind the car I drive. Maybe you honestly believe what you say, but why don't you make a poll to see who thinks RWD cars are safer or easier to drive than AWD in low grip conditions such as rain, ice or snow?

I guarantee you'll be in a minority of one.

[Davey]

Not quite that simple when you throw a centre diff in the equation

Bottom line is during normal use a to someone who is not used to RWD yes the sensation of the rear end begining to lose traction can seem un-settling and it will happen very offten if you dont alter your driving style but you learn to control the vehicle and alter your driving technique to get the best from the ballence of power and steering; but with AWD you become detached from the actual sensation of driving and when the car does lose traction it generally ends up becoming close friends with a kerb/tree/car/fence/wall..

When I take the Impreza to the limit of its handling when it lets go its not exactly a controlled experience and the only choice really is to back off the throttle gradually to allow the car to regain traction if you do make an attempt to correct with some over-steer etc.... well anyway no point talking about it just watch the various impreza videos from the last corner @ castle combe on youtube

As for making a poll we are on a forum for a marque that almost has a soul market in AWD cars, I think it would be a waste of time Be like having a "Steak or Lentils" poll on a Vegan site!

exvaux

iTrader: (1)

so how come so many typeR and p1s have been t boned on the rear quarters because the back end has kicked,i know of quite a few but not as many 4 doors,just cos they are the same model of car,the driving characteristics are so different,i could push my old L reg legacy harder than i dare the typeR,it just felt more stable,and it was the salesman at s+s services subaru that told me that the dccd should be left alone

mozzaITA

P1 havnt got dccd have they? ive never been in one (p1) to be honest but thought only the classic jap imports have dccd.

Phildodd06

P1's dont have DCCD

Fat Boy

P1 and type r have different diffs ( p1 has a 50:50 viscous centre diff like the standard 4 doors, type r has 35:65 dccd - apart from my P1 which has a dccd ;-)) so they won't have the same reasons for being rear quartered other than being AWD. AWD at the limit can catch inexperienced drivers out who try to drive them like RWD cars - lift off / modulating the power sharply can lead to lift off oversteer, and then getting spat off in the direction of the front wheels when traction is regained i.e. see your youtube videos from Castle Combe ( Tony will be along shortly;-) and we won't mention Saxo Boy ...damn).

Biggest mistake is RWD drivers trying to drive AWD like a rear wheel drive car i.e lifting off and steering into the slide, whereas AWD really pressing on will adopt a lot more of 4 wheel drift with smaller levels of correction and smaller levels of lift off. In fact, as T gro says, there are definitely times when you floor the throttle instead to pull yourself out of a slide, although you need the diff set correctly, especially in the wet.

AWD is not as good as RWD in the dry, but it's light years ahead in the wet/ slippy conditions, type R or standard. to argue any differently is at best to be a bit of a big time Charlie (" I'm a purist driving god who lives on the edge of oversteer all day" and, at worst, somebody who needs to follow their own advice and go back to driving school.

ex vaux - ignore the salesman - in the wet run in the second green, almost in the orange (although you should always fully open the diff for parking and I run like that when it's dry) and you can adjust it as you drive along if you want i.e lock it up some under braking, open it out as you apex/exit - have fun with it - it won't break.The only thing the subaru instructions say is don't adjust it in mid air....)

T-gro

Or, I could watch Simon De Banke, former webmaster here, breaking the world record for driving sideways...... in a Subaru.

Or I could watch any rally and watch three days of various techniques for going sideways under control and at great speed in four wheel drive cars.

I don't wish to be rude, but if you are having trouble with controlling your car at the limit, I think it is a little unfair to blame the transmission, especially when so many others have demonstrated plainly that that is not the case. Probably, you just need to familiarize yourself with the layout. As Fat Boy says, just as you have to adjust from a RWD to an AWD, so do you have to the other way.

exvaux

iTrader: (1)

sorry should have said i meant 2 dr imprezas tankslapping,i know the p1 has no dccd,it got the abs instead,wish id have bought the p1 now

exvaux

iTrader: (1)

[/QUOTE] ex vaux - ignore the salesman - in the wet run in the second green, almost in the orange (although you should always fully open the diff for parking and I run like that when it's dry) and you can adjust it as you drive along if you want i.e lock it up some under braking, open it out as you apex/exit - have fun with it - it won't break.The only thing the subaru instructions say is don't adjust it in mid air....)[/QUOTE]

is it meant to clunk when fully locked?

[Davey]

Cant really compare rally cars they have got independantly controlable diffs! And my argument is AWD cars which are biased to the rear are better anyway lol!

[Davey]

P1 has the same chassis so it makes no difference that it has 3 doors

T-gro

Group N rally cars are showroom spec. They've been known to go sideways on occasion too

Rear biased AWD cars may or may not be better, but the proportion of drive to the rear depends largely on how the centre diff is distributing the torque. Obviously, on a type-r that depends on how you set the dial.

T-gro

If you have it set in the oranges or above, it will probably clunk at some time or another.

Nothing to worry about, it's a limited slip diff doing what a limited slip diff does, just you have the ability to lock it more than you would normally find on a road car, hence the noises.