Spoon

I wouldn't expect any less from the breeder, they care very much. Obviously if you are speaking to her on the phone you would be wise to listen to her unless you want to lose her help.

What does intrigue me is how we differ?

If you've been feeding a pup nothing but say chicken wings for 5 weeks then the change over maybe all the 'upset' is.

I'd still be concerned about not giving a tiny puppy nothing other than raw meat for 5 weeks though.

Still, over to the breeder.

jaytc2003

iTrader: (1)

in puppyhood we used to feed here on the puppy food like cesar etc (cant remember if it was cesar but that kind of range and to be honest she would probably have been on winalot by now (always fed previous dogs on that and they have been happy, solid stools etc) however our dog is very sensitive to diet and can do funny abnormal things when fed that kind of stuff. It was by joing a springer spaniel forum that I found out about arden grange foods and decided to give them a go. Dog loved it. Had slightly sloppy stools for a few days during the change (nothing too drastic as I introduced it in with her normal food and gave it to her as treats etc would say during training but springer spaniels do what they want to do! this one does anyway never known such a disobient dog)

My only concern though with mine is that she is very skinny, the vet said she was skinny but her actual weight was fine and was well within range. He put it down to her being the runt of the litter and nearly not making it when being born, any tips on fattening them up?

(sorry for the thread hijack)

Snazy

Not a hijack at all mate, its how a thread should go

Just wondering at the mo, pardon my ignorance, maybe Spoon can help with this one.

Using AG Puppy/Weaning at the mo, which is recommended wet and as porridge up to 8 weeks, but some recommend it for a couple of months after too as a solid.
The breeder has suggested going from puppy weaning to prestige and NOT using puppy junior.

So I wondered on peoples opinon of this

Kinda makes sense to me, and the ingredients seem ok too.

Spoon

Building a dog up is always an emotive subject if it's not ill or hasn't been ill. I judge my dogs weight from sight and adjust accordingly. On a GSD if you can feel the last rib then as a rule of thumb it's a fine weight. Of course some dogs look skinnier than others but are actually very healthy.

Over feeding is one of the worst things you can do to your dog but maybe you could try it on a higher protein dog food to see if that makes any difference.

For my dogs as puppies I stay away from any food up nearer the 30% protein mark, simply because you are feeding them up too quickly and shouldn't exercise them that much anyway at a young age, therefore you prevent fattening them up and placing unnecessary weight on their young joints. This can lead to Pano which isn't pleasant for the poor sods.

Steady growth is king and I also skip the 'Young Dog' food and go straight to adult at about 6-7 months old. (Again, dog dependant).

Adult food is no more than 25-26% protein content as a preferred choice. AG Performance kibble is what I feed them as they get plenty of exercise and it contains all the right vitamins, Omega oils etc.

My one dog was always at 33kg for competition but now enjoys retirement at 40kg. He looks better now but at 33kg he looked fine although you'd argue he was thin for an adult 'pet' dog

Snazy

Cheers mate

Would you say stay on the puppy weaning for a few months more then before introducing the prestige ?
Or something else in the meantime.
From what Kris has said, she feels that this is the correct approach

Not too sure that the Mal is active enough for performance, slightly less active than GSD's by preference I believe. Will still be getting a good 6+ miles a day in though Not to mention weekend walks for the day etc.

Spoon

Personally I'd stay for up to 6 months on puppy food then move straight to adult. Not necessarily the food you're on now though as that's 32% protein.

Technically your Mal is a large breed puppy and should be on the 'Large Breed' puppy food which is only 26% protein to better control it's growth as mentioned on my previous post. Mals are susceptical to HD too and so you don't want a fat puppy!

I'd be happier on a large breed kibble for approximately 6 months and the go to adult food.

The Prestige wouldn't be my choice with a 32% protein figure either, although obviously you feed less of it, so it does cancel out to some degree when you feed a larger meal at a 25% protein content. It's just my dogs do like to eat large meals, and so 25% it is.

Maybe when you've used you existing supply you could go onto 'large Breed' puppy kibble for a while then onto adult? Depending on how your Mal eats could then determine what adult kibble you buy, as I think Prestige might be a dearer than necessary purchase if you aren't working or showing your dog.

The 'Large Breed' adult kibble is more than sufficient to maintain a good dog.

It's your call.

Snazy

Cheers mate, nice to have other opinions
Prestige is 30% protein So just about within the tolerances you mention.

The puppy's dam and sire are pretty good on hip scores, so we are hoping it will follow the trend, but clearly that will be checked at the 2 year mark or there about.

With regards to the large puppy junior, as previous, the breeder has recommended against it based on previous experience with skin and coat issues. The higher values of the Omega 3 and 6, and oils are apparently prefered by the breed to help with these issues.

To be honest, if Prestige is the best and not going to cause issues with the dog, I would rather pay the extra. Showing has been considered but unlikely tbh. It comes from a good line, but not sure I could put my heart into it. Is there any other way Prestige would be excessive?

Another opinion too... please.
You feed the "recommended" amount, and the puppy still seems to want more.
a/ Stop with the recommended
b/ up it by 10% and see how it goes
c/ measure exactly how much more the pup wants and give that regularly

Jamie

Dry food and a cork

jaytc2003

iTrader: (1)

what would you recommend then for an 18 month old english springer to put weight on? (arden grange range preferably) dog is very active but if she stretches you can see about 4 ribs!!! (as mentioned previously though weight is okay) but she isnt big boned if you know what I mean

Spoon

Yes sorry, 30% as opposed to the 32% of what he's on now. However I still consider that too much for a large breed puppy. Check out all the puppy food and look at the protein content, then check out the large breed puppy food and do the same. It appears the figures always differ with premium food, the large breed figure is always lower and that's for the reasons I mentioned, controlled growth per 'safe' exercise as a large breed puppy.

The Omega 6 and 3 figures between the 2 aren't a great deal different to be concerned about his coat. In my opinion you just have to be careful he doesn't grow too quickly on the 32% you're on now and on the 30% you will be moving to.

Recommended amounts are purely guidelines and should be treated as such. We come back to the protein versus exercise ratio at a young age though. Feed a puppy more than recommended and you might have a podgy pupster on your hands, which you don't want at all costs.

It's trial and error to start with but it won't be long before you can judge your own dogs weight and amounts to feed it. He won't go hungry on the recommended amounts and that's important to remember.

Once he's a little older and able to really exercise then you can be a little more random at feeding times. Competition dogs actually miss meals completely a few days in the month, although I'm not suggesting that will be anything that you'll need to do.

Snazy

Cheers Spoon. A good read and food for thought (pardon the pun)

Spoon

Jay, if it has to be AG food then I'd say try the Prestige if you really think it's necessary.

jaytc2003

iTrader: (1)

Cheers spoon, it doesnt have to be AG just prefernce as its good quality stuff

Spoon

Over the years I've tried lots of brands and AG does, I think, come out the best. I'm glad I get the breeder club discount which is a big saving on just one 15kg bag.

jaytc2003

iTrader: (1)

I dont think its that dear anyway, not when you think how long it lasts for and especially compared to winalot type foods

Spoon

At £40.78/15KG retail it's not cheap as dog food goes. However in this case 'dear' is good if the dogs are getting the best. Winalot and most of the rest are a cereal based food with derivitives of this and that plus animal by-products. No omega oils or cranberry etc.

I wouldn't feed an ant on a dog food that doesn't at least have meat as it's first and main ingredient. As soon as you see cereal first you are basically feeding them snot.

Snazy

I have to agree mate.
Im not bothered about the cost to be honest, just want the best for lil Tuvaaq
Oh and an update, 24 hours on AG again and the whiff has faded away somewhat. Still a little sniffy when I left the house this morning, but that was less than 24 hours. 2 meals on AG by then.

He has also not had any accidents in the house today, but yesterday he did. Prob coincidence.
Looking forward to getting home tonight to see how his lil tum is doing now

Snazy

Just an update, Spoon

Over 24 hours back on AG Puppy/Weaning and the farts have gone. My bad for running out, but at least that is that solved, and I know the AG seems to be the right choice, and RC is a no no.

He had a little vomiting earlier, but I get the impression someone gave him a few too many treats while I was out.
So another lesson learnt, hide them all so only I can hand them out, and instruct other people what to do and what not to do. From the volume of food gone from the container, I suspect an over feed too.



Feel like a bad dad at the mo, but it can only get better now

Spoon

Good news, Snaz, lets hope he now goes from strength to strength. Just be careful with the easy love option of over feeding. Also treats are named that for a reason and shouldn't be given ***** nilly.

I can get mine to 'speak' the alphabet for a treat or even their food if I so desire, so earning it becomes their priority. A food driven dog is very obedient if he/she knows you have food on you. An over fed dog doesn't give a monkeys most of the time.

Introduce him to a ball early too and you'll be surprised just how much a ball driven dog will do when told. Never leave the ball with him though. Play and take it back so he looks forward to you getting the ball back out next time. All toys are yours that you let him play with, not the other way around.

Lets home Pimmo has the same report.

Snazy

Cheers mate

At the mo the regime is, go out for the 2-3 hourly toilet opportunity, and maybe take A treat. If he goes in the right place and not too quickly he MAY get a treat. Dont want him expecting something everytime he does his business. Just used as some encouragement. He does of course get praise and a bit of fuss each time
Not one for filling dogs with treats But was worried my young niece or nephew might have, so have hidden it all now, and measured out his lunch already too.

Tuvaaq is starting to waaah on command now, hand signal in this case. Not perfect but working on it.

Nice idea with the ball too mate, cheers. At the mo he is easily distracted, but in the coming couple of weeks when he can get out properly, start being walked etc I will introduce something thats "HIS"

Really pleased his tummy is better though. After yesterday evenings vomit, he settled after emptying his tummy, and managed to keep his supper down, so guessing its something he got his paws on earlier in the day.

As for the obedience, he is very good going back to his crate when its food time, and suddenly becomes very good about sitting and waiting, so another opportunity to be used

yup hope Pimmo is having the same luck

Spoon

Good news.

You don't mention the food as there are puppies and puppies, despite EVERYONE recommending it.

I guessed the chicken wings so do I have to guess the food too?

Snazy

lol depending how good the vet is that could be anything from Hills Science to AG..

Tell me at least.
Now the dog has just gone over another weight barrier, I am just upping his allowance of food again. Hoping he will be more content at the end of feeding now

Backwards step with house training, about 3-4 accidents in the house in the past 24 hours.
Regular visits outside too.

Snazy

Your own waterbowl and water is a must imo, especially for younger dogs, but Tuvaaq will always be getting his own. lil back pack, not decided who is carrying it yet lol.

My lil lad get excitable sometimes, but I find ignoring him works. Occasionally playing back, but want him to learn its not on demand. Cant wait to be able to take him out for long walks, and get him lead trained, the best I can

Aaaah fair enough, dont blame you, but let us know when you know Glad she is all sorted out now and her tum tum back to normal.

Lee247

I'm going to have to say something nice about Spoon, Good God.
What he doesn't know about dogs isn't worth knowing

Lee247

You are taking pictures of the dog, I hope. Not the puppy poo

Snazy

lol I wondered the same.
Speaking of which I have a back garden to clean up lol

As for Spoon, its nice to talk with people who have opinions and not FORCE opinions upon you. Cheers for all the conversation

Spoon

Thank you, Lee, it's appreciated. I wouldn't ever claim to know lots about every breed but I know GSD's, and as it's a GSD that I sourced fro Pimmo that we are talking about here, I've offered my advice. It appears to make no odds to people who choose to not listen however.

Snazy hit the nail on the head with the issue about vets. It's only the same as pet shops. In my experience I'd never listen to any vet that had a financial interest in plugging products. They do not sell the best foods, end of.

Vets and pet shops are like listening to advice from a car supermarket salesman on say something like a Ferrari. They are there to sell it and thrive on the uneducated.

Pimmo, I see you are taking her for a long walk too, something you shouldn't be doing with her at this age, as explained here on this thread and to you via PM or email.

Spoon

The thing is, Snaz, it's a board of a fair degree of anonymity and so I could be any joker. I post on threads I know about otherwise I don't bother.

All opinions are just that without basing them on fact and without fact they can be bloody dangerous.

I'm old and wise enough now to know nobody can be forced but it doesn't lessen the frustration when you know somebody is quite clearly doing things wrongly.

You on the other hand appear to more than take the job in hand seriously.

Snazy

Cheers mate, comments appreciated
I like opinions, and informed ones at that. Rather than random comments and being bombarded with people who have a one liner of advice and nothing to back it up.
I do of course research, and cross reference everything I hear, rather than accepting things at face value. The nearest to gospel for me is from Kris the breeder. She knows the breed well, and is open in opinion. A bonus to me. Very ANTI with some things, even as far as vet advice.

Had a recent conversation with someone about working dogs and homing them outside. With house access and decent shelter etc of course. I was informed I was uncaring, and that it was unfair doing so.
Not sure on your opinion on that, but a Mal is a working breed, thick coated and loves freedom, space, privacy and fresh air. Giving the dog the option to have all of these in my opinion is fairer than being kept indoors all day long.

Again, I would not even contemplate it unless the breeder and other keepers/breeders had suggested it, and the pups had inact been given free roam mainly outdoors since 6 weeks.

Advice is very important in my experience, especially with things you know little about. But advice should be taken in moderation, and used as a basis to research further, and come to your own conclusions, experience = knowledge to a great degree. No experience = need for advice.

Spoon

In a decent kennel with some form of heating or at least decent wind shelter (for the really cold nights) won't be a problem at all. All my GSD's over the years have much preferred to be outside 24 hours a day.

I gave them free reign to roam the grounds and go in their kennel block when they like. It is a block built 20ft x 6ft kennel, with divided bed sections for even more protection, with heating, lighting etc.

The two I have now are indoors more but still love to be outdoors most of the day when they're not with me in the motor.