Who here is running a top mount intercooler and running large power 350+ BHP
30 October 2007, 06:30 PM
#32
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30 October 2007, 07:36 PM
#33
David, if i may.
How did you come to the conclusion that the sti topmount was to blame for the engine failure?
As i understand it, the car was mapped (safe map) with that cooler in place and the car has had very little use since. The car was on a motorway/dual carrageway cruising at speed in what i also understand to be cold/damp conditions.
What points to the topmount being the problem?
How did you come to the conclusion that the sti topmount was to blame for the engine failure?
As i understand it, the car was mapped (safe map) with that cooler in place and the car has had very little use since. The car was on a motorway/dual carrageway cruising at speed in what i also understand to be cold/damp conditions.
What points to the topmount being the problem?
30 October 2007, 08:06 PM
#35
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maybe me included..
31 October 2007, 09:25 AM
#38
I cannot see where you state what model of car you have or the modifications all of which are relevant.
If you are talking about Classics, then any Classic with more than 300 bhp will be starting to see relatively high air charge temperatures and the earlier cars with slanted TMICs. will have more of an issue than the last of the Classics.
On a 335 bhp STi 3 Wagon, O/E TMIC, injectors, turbo and ECU, the air charge temperature went off the guage on acceleration runs to 100 mph (ie. more than 69.9 deg C.). Fitting an STi 7 scoop made a marginal difference. Fitting an STi 8 scoop made a further difference but temperatures were still off the guage by 120 mph.
Fitting an STi 8 TMIC and STi 7 scoop was a big improvement but still not acceptable. Better results were obtained from the STi 8 TMIC, a purpose made under tray and STi 8 scoop. (Incidentally, fitting this and making it neat without banging on the bulk head was a big job).
On the New Age cars there was an improvement on the STi 7 and by the STi 8 a further improvement but I don't have specific figures for these cars. I would guess an STi 8 will handle a good bit more power on the TMIC beyond the acceptable level for a Classic.
I don't see anywhere that you give a description of the engine damage.
Were you running the car in or how many miles had it done since the rebuild and was it fully mapped ? What were the mods ?
What work did you instruct API to carry out ? Did you tell them you had an open cheque book and discuss with them every modification that should be done ? In my experience lots of people want to take short cuts to getting power without spending money to make it reliable in the long term and avoiding an intercooler upgrade is one of these short cuts. Just like avoiding Forged pistons, steel rods and billet crank but bolting on a bigger turbo that probably takes the OE equipment too or beyond the limits.
Be sensible, no tuner is going to refuse to release your car to you because they have not fitted x,y, or z that you have not asked for but that in an ideal world you would have fitted.
From reading the thread it is not clear how the engine failure took place but reference is made to it being on the motorway. If you drive any Subaru WOT for an extended period you substantially increase the risk of engine damage. Think about it. If the car is modified and the ECU has been mapped you are probably travelling outside the envelope where the mapping took place. What speeds did you reach during mapping ? What speeds can you reach on a motorway ? What ECU is fitted ? Does it measure charge temperature ?
It is usually possible to come up with a shrewd assessment of what went wrong once the engine is stripped and the internals are carefully examined.
If you are talking about Classics, then any Classic with more than 300 bhp will be starting to see relatively high air charge temperatures and the earlier cars with slanted TMICs. will have more of an issue than the last of the Classics.
On a 335 bhp STi 3 Wagon, O/E TMIC, injectors, turbo and ECU, the air charge temperature went off the guage on acceleration runs to 100 mph (ie. more than 69.9 deg C.). Fitting an STi 7 scoop made a marginal difference. Fitting an STi 8 scoop made a further difference but temperatures were still off the guage by 120 mph.
Fitting an STi 8 TMIC and STi 7 scoop was a big improvement but still not acceptable. Better results were obtained from the STi 8 TMIC, a purpose made under tray and STi 8 scoop. (Incidentally, fitting this and making it neat without banging on the bulk head was a big job).
On the New Age cars there was an improvement on the STi 7 and by the STi 8 a further improvement but I don't have specific figures for these cars. I would guess an STi 8 will handle a good bit more power on the TMIC beyond the acceptable level for a Classic.
I don't see anywhere that you give a description of the engine damage.
Were you running the car in or how many miles had it done since the rebuild and was it fully mapped ? What were the mods ?
Well API are still blaming it on the top mount, very unhappy about all of this tbh, as IMO if the top mount was unsuitable then for one the car should not have been allowed to be released as it was, and two surely the mapper would not have been happy and refused to map the car with it on.
Be sensible, no tuner is going to refuse to release your car to you because they have not fitted x,y, or z that you have not asked for but that in an ideal world you would have fitted.
From reading the thread it is not clear how the engine failure took place but reference is made to it being on the motorway. If you drive any Subaru WOT for an extended period you substantially increase the risk of engine damage. Think about it. If the car is modified and the ECU has been mapped you are probably travelling outside the envelope where the mapping took place. What speeds did you reach during mapping ? What speeds can you reach on a motorway ? What ECU is fitted ? Does it measure charge temperature ?
It is usually possible to come up with a shrewd assessment of what went wrong once the engine is stripped and the internals are carefully examined.
31 October 2007, 09:29 AM
#39
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Just a quick note on what was done etc,altho im sure cookie will comfirm all stories etc.
MODEL Subaru Impreza WRX
YEAR 2002
DESCRIPTION
Bugeye model
MODIFICATIONS
Lowered on Eibach springs
standard shocks
Solid rear drop links
Front upper strut brace
Twin ceramic plate HKS clutch
5 speed PPG gearset, built by API
2.0 STI block
forged pistons
forged rods
STI heads
API modified injectors
Walbro uprated fuel pump
API equal length fuel rail kit
Fuelab FPR
3 port boost solenoid
uprated plugs "7's"
API oversized induction pipe
K&N cold air induction kit
MD321T turbo
STI8 intercooler
Intercooler Y hardpipe
CDF lightened pulley kit
Dump valve delete mod
Full blue samco hose kit
Forge alloy expansion tank
Forge alloy power steering fluid res
Stainless steel slam panel
Remap by Pat
Ported OE headers
H&S decat uppipe
H&S decat downpipe
H&S decat centre pipe
H&S non res centre pipe
H&S jap style angle exit backbox
MODEL Subaru Impreza WRX
YEAR 2002
DESCRIPTION
Bugeye model
MODIFICATIONS
Lowered on Eibach springs
standard shocks
Solid rear drop links
Front upper strut brace
Twin ceramic plate HKS clutch
5 speed PPG gearset, built by API
2.0 STI block
forged pistons
forged rods
STI heads
API modified injectors
Walbro uprated fuel pump
API equal length fuel rail kit
Fuelab FPR
3 port boost solenoid
uprated plugs "7's"
API oversized induction pipe
K&N cold air induction kit
MD321T turbo
STI8 intercooler
Intercooler Y hardpipe
CDF lightened pulley kit
Dump valve delete mod
Full blue samco hose kit
Forge alloy expansion tank
Forge alloy power steering fluid res
Stainless steel slam panel
Remap by Pat
Ported OE headers
H&S decat uppipe
H&S decat downpipe
H&S decat centre pipe
H&S non res centre pipe
H&S jap style angle exit backbox
Last edited by Spec'c'57; 31 October 2007 at 11:16 AM.
31 October 2007, 11:14 AM
#41
Harvey
It was a built 2ltr as listed above with an MD321T and an STI8 TMIC.
The car was en route to the MOT station and was crusing at approx 100mph. In 5th, then when it came on boost it let go and holed a piston.
My guess based on the current information is that there was too much ign timing dialed in at that point in the load table and the car was pinging.
Cookie, can you explain exactly what happened and what you were doing at the time of failure? I feel this will help the discussion.
It was a built 2ltr as listed above with an MD321T and an STI8 TMIC.
The car was en route to the MOT station and was crusing at approx 100mph. In 5th, then when it came on boost it let go and holed a piston.
My guess based on the current information is that there was too much ign timing dialed in at that point in the load table and the car was pinging.
Cookie, can you explain exactly what happened and what you were doing at the time of failure? I feel this will help the discussion.
31 October 2007, 12:18 PM
#42
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David, if i may.
How did you come to the conclusion that the sti topmount was to blame for the engine failure?
As i understand it, the car was mapped (safe map) with that cooler in place and the car has had very little use since. The car was on a motorway/dual carrageway cruising at speed in what i also understand to be cold/damp conditions.
What points to the topmount being the problem?
How did you come to the conclusion that the sti topmount was to blame for the engine failure?
As i understand it, the car was mapped (safe map) with that cooler in place and the car has had very little use since. The car was on a motorway/dual carrageway cruising at speed in what i also understand to be cold/damp conditions.
What points to the topmount being the problem?
It is a fact that as the car runs harder on a top mount and you start running on positive boost, to maintain speed, the intake air temp goes up. Once it starts rising it feeds on itself and the weaker mixture causes a higher burn temperature which feeds more heat into the block core and so on
As the temps rise it will start detting and a disaster is not far away. An engine running at say; close to 5000 rpm @ 100 mph on an import, is rotating at 83 times A SECOND. It will not take long for the core temp to reach a high enough number to start melting the alloy of the piston crown. Once that happens ................
The car was mapped extremely safely, as on the day of mapping we had a difficult misfire to overcome that foxed us all. In the end, out of frustration, we changed the cam angle sensor on a " it can't do any harm even thoiugh the system is telling us there is nothing wrong with it" basis. Instant cure, but by now it was approaching 7 pm, Mark had been here all day without any sleep and should have been back at work by 6 pm.
Thus we left the map very safe and arranged to have him back another time [ probably to coincide with a service ] to finalise the map.
I stress the map is nowhere near the edge. So any remarks on here previously about the quality of mapping are pure unadvised guesswork.
The piston is on its way to Wossner in Germany for their opinion about the cause of the failure.
That's it folks, until I get some more info and then Mark and I are going to come to an arrangement.
I will not respond to guesswork and uninformed opinion that may appear on here.
David APi
31 October 2007, 12:59 PM
#43
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It is a fact that as the car runs harder on a top mount and you start running on positive boost, to maintain speed, the intake air temp goes up. Once it starts rising it feeds on itself and the weaker mixture causes a higher burn temperature which feeds more heat into the block core and so on
As the temps rise it will start detting and a disaster is not far away. An engine running at say; close to 5000 rpm @ 100 mph on an import, is rotating at 83 times A SECOND. It will not take long for the core temp to reach a high enough number to start melting the alloy of the piston crown. Once that happens ................
The car was mapped extremely safely, as on the day of mapping we had a difficult misfire to overcome that foxed us all. In the end, out of frustration, we changed the cam angle sensor on a " it can't do any harm even thoiugh the system is telling us there is nothing wrong with it" basis. Instant cure, but by now it was approaching 7 pm, Mark had been here all day without any sleep and should have been back at work by 6 pm.
Thus we left the map very safe and arranged to have him back another time [ probably to coincide with a service ] to finalise the map.
I stress the map is nowhere near the edge. So any remarks on here previously about the quality of mapping are pure unadvised guesswork.
The piston is on its way to Wossner in Germany for their opinion about the cause of the failure.
That's it folks, until I get some more info and then Mark and I are going to come to an arrangement.
I will not respond to guesswork and uninformed opinion that may appear on here.
David APi
As the temps rise it will start detting and a disaster is not far away. An engine running at say; close to 5000 rpm @ 100 mph on an import, is rotating at 83 times A SECOND. It will not take long for the core temp to reach a high enough number to start melting the alloy of the piston crown. Once that happens ................
The car was mapped extremely safely, as on the day of mapping we had a difficult misfire to overcome that foxed us all. In the end, out of frustration, we changed the cam angle sensor on a " it can't do any harm even thoiugh the system is telling us there is nothing wrong with it" basis. Instant cure, but by now it was approaching 7 pm, Mark had been here all day without any sleep and should have been back at work by 6 pm.
Thus we left the map very safe and arranged to have him back another time [ probably to coincide with a service ] to finalise the map.
I stress the map is nowhere near the edge. So any remarks on here previously about the quality of mapping are pure unadvised guesswork.
The piston is on its way to Wossner in Germany for their opinion about the cause of the failure.
That's it folks, until I get some more info and then Mark and I are going to come to an arrangement.
I will not respond to guesswork and uninformed opinion that may appear on here.
David APi
31 October 2007, 01:01 PM
#44
It is a fact that as the car runs harder on a top mount and you start running on positive boost, to maintain speed, the intake air temp goes up. Once it starts rising it feeds on itself and the weaker mixture causes a higher burn temperature which feeds more heat into the block core and so on
As the temps rise it will start detting and a disaster is not far away. An engine running at say; close to 5000 rpm @ 100 mph on an import, is rotating at 83 times A SECOND. It will not take long for the core temp to reach a high enough number to start melting the alloy of the piston crown. Once that happens ................
As the temps rise it will start detting and a disaster is not far away. An engine running at say; close to 5000 rpm @ 100 mph on an import, is rotating at 83 times A SECOND. It will not take long for the core temp to reach a high enough number to start melting the alloy of the piston crown. Once that happens ................
intake air will increase when stationary as heat soak effects the induction system, once rolling it tends to stabilise close to ambient with a good cold air feed.
Charge temp increases with a boost increase and as Dynamix has mentioned from his testing on the same TMIC charge temperatures were more or less the same as ambient under cruise conditions. Dynamix runs a significantly smaller turbo which will be far less efficient at elevated boost pressures than the MD321T, yet his seems to cope with 1.5bar through the midrange.
As the boost increases the loading increases and the ECU will pass into a richer part of the fuel map, which should have an optimised AFR when mapping, I fail to see how this could cause it to run lean leading to detonation.
Surely if the piston crown melts it's not upto the job
31 October 2007, 03:48 PM
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It is a fact that as the car runs harder on a top mount and you start running on positive boost, to maintain speed, the intake air temp goes up. Once it starts rising it feeds on itself and the weaker mixture causes a higher burn temperature which feeds more heat into the block core and so on
As the temps rise it will start detting and a disaster is not far away. An engine running at say; close to 5000 rpm @ 100 mph on an import, is rotating at 83 times A SECOND. It will not take long for the core temp to reach a high enough number to start melting the alloy of the piston crown. Once that happens ................
The car was mapped extremely safely, as on the day of mapping we had a difficult misfire to overcome that foxed us all. In the end, out of frustration, we changed the cam angle sensor on a " it can't do any harm even thoiugh the system is telling us there is nothing wrong with it" basis. Instant cure, but by now it was approaching 7 pm, Mark had been here all day without any sleep and should have been back at work by 6 pm.
Thus we left the map very safe and arranged to have him back another time [ probably to coincide with a service ] to finalise the map.
I stress the map is nowhere near the edge. So any remarks on here previously about the quality of mapping are pure unadvised guesswork.
The piston is on its way to Wossner in Germany for their opinion about the cause of the failure.
That's it folks, until I get some more info and then Mark and I are going to come to an arrangement.
I will not respond to guesswork and uninformed opinion that may appear on here.
David APi
As the temps rise it will start detting and a disaster is not far away. An engine running at say; close to 5000 rpm @ 100 mph on an import, is rotating at 83 times A SECOND. It will not take long for the core temp to reach a high enough number to start melting the alloy of the piston crown. Once that happens ................
The car was mapped extremely safely, as on the day of mapping we had a difficult misfire to overcome that foxed us all. In the end, out of frustration, we changed the cam angle sensor on a " it can't do any harm even thoiugh the system is telling us there is nothing wrong with it" basis. Instant cure, but by now it was approaching 7 pm, Mark had been here all day without any sleep and should have been back at work by 6 pm.
Thus we left the map very safe and arranged to have him back another time [ probably to coincide with a service ] to finalise the map.
I stress the map is nowhere near the edge. So any remarks on here previously about the quality of mapping are pure unadvised guesswork.
The piston is on its way to Wossner in Germany for their opinion about the cause of the failure.
That's it folks, until I get some more info and then Mark and I are going to come to an arrangement.
I will not respond to guesswork and uninformed opinion that may appear on here.
David APi
It would appear that API intend to resolve this amicably between themselves and Cookie, which is all that can be asked.
31 October 2007, 04:16 PM
#48
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David,
intake air will increase when stationary as heat soak effects the induction system, once rolling it tends to stabilise close to ambient with a good cold air feed.
Charge temp increases with a boost increase and as Dynamix has mentioned from his testing on the same TMIC charge temperatures were more or less the same as ambient under cruise conditions. Dynamix runs a significantly smaller turbo which will be far less efficient at elevated boost pressures than the MD321T, yet his seems to cope with 1.5bar through the midrange.
As the boost increases the loading increases and the ECU will pass into a richer part of the fuel map, which should have an optimised AFR when mapping, I fail to see how this could cause it to run lean leading to detonation.
Surely if the piston crown melts it's not upto the job
intake air will increase when stationary as heat soak effects the induction system, once rolling it tends to stabilise close to ambient with a good cold air feed.
Charge temp increases with a boost increase and as Dynamix has mentioned from his testing on the same TMIC charge temperatures were more or less the same as ambient under cruise conditions. Dynamix runs a significantly smaller turbo which will be far less efficient at elevated boost pressures than the MD321T, yet his seems to cope with 1.5bar through the midrange.
As the boost increases the loading increases and the ECU will pass into a richer part of the fuel map, which should have an optimised AFR when mapping, I fail to see how this could cause it to run lean leading to detonation.
Surely if the piston crown melts it's not upto the job
What you have not been told is that, the engine has heat sensitive marker tabs fitted when supplied by API.
Running temp for that engine is between 82 and 88 degrees C Our heat tabs melt at 104C. All four are melted. Doesn't happen cruising lightly......This engine is or had been working very hard.
David
31 October 2007, 05:28 PM
#49
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Interesting reading this lot....
I'm a firm believer this thread is not to point any fingers, but merely to open our eyes and generally educate people as to how things happen.
There's plenty of pople blasting around in these cars, but very few, who understand exactly whats going on (me, for one).
it would be interesting to see how the test results pan out, and hope this thread does not get locked because posts may be deemed negative.
very good contributions so far and i hope it stays as constructive.
good luck Cookie and hope the end result favours all.
I'm a firm believer this thread is not to point any fingers, but merely to open our eyes and generally educate people as to how things happen.
There's plenty of pople blasting around in these cars, but very few, who understand exactly whats going on (me, for one).
it would be interesting to see how the test results pan out, and hope this thread does not get locked because posts may be deemed negative.
very good contributions so far and i hope it stays as constructive.
good luck Cookie and hope the end result favours all.
31 October 2007, 05:29 PM
#50
Irrespective of bland statements, the STi TMIC has been stated as the problem.
Fact 1 - the STI TMIC is a very efficient intercooler
Fact 2 - the MD321T turbo is a very efficient turbocharger
The only way the TMIC wouldn't cope with this set-up is if the turbo was working way out of it's efficiency zone, where's that 1.7bar, 1.8bar, 1.9bar, 2.0bar??
What boost was Cookstars car mapped to?
TMIC aside, where are you measuring these temps, inlet manifold, cylinder heads, block..........
................or brakes 
Fact 1 - the STI TMIC is a very efficient intercooler
Fact 2 - the MD321T turbo is a very efficient turbocharger
The only way the TMIC wouldn't cope with this set-up is if the turbo was working way out of it's efficiency zone, where's that 1.7bar, 1.8bar, 1.9bar, 2.0bar??
What boost was Cookstars car mapped to?
TMIC aside, where are you measuring these temps, inlet manifold, cylinder heads, block..........
................or brakes
31 October 2007, 07:56 PM
#51
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Boost showed as 1.4 bar ish, but fluttered about a bit.
A question that still remains unanswered is how do the Type 25s cope with the same top mount quite happily?
A question that still remains unanswered is how do the Type 25s cope with the same top mount quite happily?
31 October 2007, 11:11 PM
#52
Indeed, perfectly capable of doing exactly the same at your level.
How much boost exactly does a type 25 run i wonder? At least 1.4bar i bet!
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