Santas Elf

Pete, do you even know why these famines and epidemics actually happen?... weather has little to do with it, in fact nothing... it's all to do with politics and transient populations... mostly surrounding central Africa.

Until you fully understand the root cause I'd gamble you're not well placed to have a reasoned discussion about the whole issue?...

...weather indeed

PeteBrant

No, mainly, this whole aid thing is about saving people from staving to death, or dying from drinking water you wouldn't **** in. Or you know, being able to go to school and stuff.



What are you saying here? You think they would be better off under British/French/European rule?

PeteBrant

I was making the point that there are circumstances beyond anyones control
that contribute to the problems. And if you think that Drought and famine don't occur to due to things like, you know, it not raining two months earlier, than you are dead wrong. or Ehtiopia in is sixth poor rainy season in three years. - You think that won't impact things? Absolutely dead, dead wrong.

scoobynutta555

It's their country, it's their people let them deal with it. Sorry, but I'm not responsible for the welfare of the world's 6 billion people.



And you think they wouldn't be better off?

David Lock

I have been involved in quite a few aid projects in Africa. IMHO the smaller projects often worked quite well. I spent time in Liberia, Sierra Leone and Zimbabwe on rural water supply programmes and it was heart breaking to see those countries destroyed by internal conflict. It tended to be the big World Bank and the like projects that got screwed up because of top level corruption and, sometimes, poorly designed projects. They were also often linked to IMF requirements for change to a government's economic structure and that put another spanner in the works, fraught with problems. Political will, if you like, but it hardly ever worked.

The UK government took some pretty stupid decisions at times. I worked for a government agency and they wanted to help out the Gambia and Sierra Leone to reduce their foreign exchange needs. So they spent millions of pounds in shipping out fuel. I did the contracts but HMG insisted it must be British fuel and shipped from UK. I told HMG that fuel was an international product and, at the time, it could be bought in Abidjan and shipped around the corner thus saving a small fortune. But they wouldn't have it. On one EC funded fuel supply programme I awarded a contract worth a few million only to be overruled by an EC office who had been told by the local Minister for Energy that the contract should be awarded to a company of his choice; so that was corruption in action supported by our friends in Brussels. Makes you spit but you can't give up dl

Santas Elf

It won't impact things.... and you're grasping at straws on this one

Africa is the most furtile place on planet earth and the prime reason that the droughts (which have been happening on a regular basis for the last 3000 years) adversely effect specific areas is purely down to poor leadership and poor land management combined with a VAST transient population.

So the poor rainy season may compound an EXISTING problem, but again it's not the root problem and in a stable environment would be managed.

PeteBrant

Fair enough!, I mean it's a terrible attitude to have but to each thier own.





Well I mean I realise slavery must have been a fine life, But I reckon they are better off without it.


I mean what have we got for a modern day equivalent... Iraq..

Yes, they are far better off out of it.

PeteBrant

I didnt say it was a root cause - I said it contributed. And you need to go and do some reading if you think it has no impact on the welfare of people... Ill even sort out some links if you like, but just go to sites like concern et al.


When you have **** all money, **** all infrastructure and **** all government, then a drought impacts things. Lots.

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

When Africa stops breeding children it can't feed, buying arms is doesn't need, squandering and embezzling money it can't afford to, massacring other groups because they're not the same tribe, and begging us to relieve them of debt that they acquired by buying weapons to kill other Africans, in order to allow them to buy more weapons to kill even more Africans....

Africa is stinking rich with natural resources.... yet they're too busy butchering each other to do anything about it.

Quite frankly. They can ram it.

Santas Elf

And there's your root cause... and a bag full of teddy's, a few spades or a tray of stale pot noodles won't change that, only political will... or failing that force, which would have once been the job of the United Nations...

So until the root cause is addressed "charity" remains a waste of time...

scoobynutta555

May be terrible for you, it's not for me nor many others.






I wasn't aware there was a slavery problem in Zimbabwe a few decades ago, perhaps you can enlighten me. Also while you're here please tell me how a free and self determined government can make 'the breadbasket' of Africa into Africas basketcase.

I don't quite see the Iraq connection. You're trying to compare an African colony ruled by the British for quite a while then let to go independence to an Iraq despot regime ousted and replaced by a democratic government. You're not making much sense at all with your comparisions. The two situations are wholly different. And, if you do want to continue with the comparison, Iraq was probably a much nicer place to live in under British rule several decades ago than it is now or 20 years ago.

PeteBrant

I can't actually look at this thread any longer. It's just too depressing to see that people that obviously have great taste in cars can be so.., well, horrible.

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

Scoobynutta555 - What you have to understand about our "liberal" friends is that they place personal freedom, having the right to vote and being able to use the same toilets as more important than having food to eat and being able to sleep in your bed without worrying about being murdered in the night.

I'm not saying Slavery was a good thing - but I'm sure there is a good percentage of Africans who would be having a far better life in slavery than they currently are as "free men". The only thing many Africans are free to do at the moment is starve to death or get slaughtered because they're not from the right tribe.

For the record, I consider myself to be a realist. Its a terrible to see a continent as amazing as Africa in such a mess; but the bottom line is that its in a mess because Africans let it be. We SHOULD do something about it, but in order to do something meaningful, we would simply be accused of being "Imperialists" by the very same people who want us to just throw money at the problem. Africans don't oppose western intervention in Africa because they want the freedom to rule themselves, they oppose it because they want the freedom to screw over the rest of the Africa.

DCI Gene Hunt

Or do you mean you've just had your **** handed back on a plate?

PeteBrant

Absolute bollocks. If it saves lives, which is undoubtably does, then it's not a waste of time. It's as simple that really.

And , of course, we are commited to giving Africa lots of money, which is ace - sucks to be you people that don'e beleive in it - Bit hey, that's life

PeteBrant

No, I just mean i cant be doing with typical right wing scoobynet ****s talking bollocks.

PeteBrant

That's possibly the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

Only in the short term Pete, which is the whole problem - Africa needs a long term solution which will result in responsible governance, which isn't going to happen by throwing money at the problem.

Why is it stupid Pete? Slaves tended to be expensive things.. and were treated as such. At least they'd get fed, and while they might get the odd slap around - they're unlikely to get killed for fun. Which is a damn site better life than many Africans have at the moment.

DCI Gene Hunt

Are you attempting to type in Scottish ...... and only time will tell, although with Aids now an epidemic I'm guessing they don't actually have much of that left either!

GC8WRX

All i know is that my mate from zimbabwe had "domestic help" in his house for years before they moved to england 4 years ago, and apparently he was happy to have a roof over his head, free food and a small amount of money each week!

Since they moved away he has had to fend for himself and was eventually killed for originating from a different tribe!!!

PeteBrant

I really am going to have to duck out here, there no point in arguing about it I really don't beleive in not helping these people in anyway you can, I dont think this is an example where "cruel to be kind" applies. I guess some of you do. Apologies for calling you ****s, I really don't think that

DCI Gene Hunt

It's only banter Pete... no rights or wrongs, just opinions... and that feckin Elf really is a podgy **** anyway

Santas Elf

I'm not podgy

OllyK

We don't send any to Zimbabwe, they won't accept it as it means food will get to those that are not supporters of Mugabe. By Mugabe controlling the food he can starve the opposition out, if you want to eat you support Mugabe.

OllyK

Odly enough, many Africans think they would. I spoke to quite a lot of them when I was in Kenya and the general opinion was that independance from Britain was the worst thing we did to them.

Steve169

updated video.

scoobynutta555

Pete has sidestepped the tricky questions I posed earlier. For your benefit Pete I'll repeat my points as I know you'll still be reading this thread:

In short my attitude to Africa and aid takes a lot of influence from the fact certain countries wanted independence from European colonies ASAP. Then stupid electorates let dictators and despots ruin whole economies, and indeed lives in their pursuit of avarice.

Then what really sticks in me is some wooley headed liberal shaking a collection tin in my face for the starving in Africa. You may have cold sweats at night thinking about all those people dying but I don't.

What needs to be done is to go in there and colonise the place again and sort it all out. Everything will be fine, everyone will be fed and then we'll get booted out in favour of some tinpot nutter. I'm not in favour on this either BTW.

So in short, good luck with your crusade, I'll happily continue switching channels when some white do-gooding reporter after a Pulitzer decides it's time to do the Africa thing again.