AllanB

Fact is USA bankrolled Pakistan as it was strategically useful to have on side but with a corrupt disctatorship what do you expect the oputcome to be ?

We should not have tollerated what went on there but our governments did like too many other places I could name.

The religion of the people has nothing to do with it.


AllanB

CyprusScooby

Pakistan is in sh*t state at the minute.
Its temming with terrorist and Al Queeda!

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

Really? So the fact that the extremists that killed Bhutto are islamic fundamentalists, supported and controlled by the exact same clerics who support and control the Taliban in Afghanistan is some massive coincidence.

To be fair, Musarraf has probably been the only thing thats held that country together over the last 18 months/2 years; if Bhutto gained power the Clerics would have started a civil war anyhow as they would have never accepted anyone so liberal in power now - the only thing that stops them openly challenging Musarraf is that he has total control over the Army.

Unfortunately, in Pakistan, Religion has EVERYTHING to do with it.

kingofturds

iTrader: (1)

It amazes me the contrast between India and Pakistan On the one hand you have hard working Nation like India working hard to better their country. Then you have Pakistan An economic basket case propped up by billions of US aid and The countrymen more interested in preying 5 times a day then working and blowing up everthing that moves.

beastgtir

iTrader: (1)

You live upto your name, turd.

kingofturds

iTrader: (1)

Which troll is this

richie001

iTrader: (3)

She had big enemies within the Government and Military and its a good possibly that she was killed by them.

Funkii Munkii

Surprise !!

Er no it wasn't

To be honest I am surprised it took this long, she knew it was coming, some sort of bizarre martyrdom going on there, she wasn't the first and wont be the last.

Maz

iTrader: (34)

That's not exactly accurate.

andythejock01wrx

I'm not surprised - she was despised by the extemistists due to the fact she was a moderate, female politician, not forgetting the fact that she had stated that she would have allowed US forces in Afghanistan to pursue the Taleban back onto Pakistan.

Still, I do find today's events shocking and rather sad. She may well have been guilty of corruption when she was PM, but she was clearly an extremely courageous and driven democrat, willing to risk her life for her country.

The country is on a political knife edge now - let's hope for our sake the secularists come out on top !

AsifScoob

Funny, I don't recall having killed anyone recently...how far back do you want me to look?

AsifScoob

Agree with this, but only to a certain extent.

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

According to some on here, look back as far as possible, to find either that you or someone in your family's history has killed someone. In some minds, you'll have to be at least inadvertently responsible for a death somewhere.

Some love to generalise.

AsifScoob

Sorry mate, but it's global politics.

There is practically no part of the World that hasn't been touched by it. All the major powers, whether military or economic love to do it.

Has been going in that part of the World for a very long time, China had wars with India, so strategically allied themselves with Pakistan, Soviet Union has been there with Afghanistan, now we are there. Pakistan is inextricably involved with this and always has been.

We in the West are happy to support whoever serves our interest, what other way is there? This therefore includes dictators, despots, madmen, as it suits us.

No ones hands are clean in this, but ultimately, people are responsible for their own governments. If that happens to be a western backed dictator, who is happy to usurp the rule of law and oppress them - well it's up to them to do something about it.

Asif

AsifScoob

She has got to be one of the most corrupt politicians the World has ever seen.

Don't get me wrong, sad and tragic and all that, plus she may do more good dead than alive, but she was a leech. Her and especially her husband, who unfortunately shares the same name as myself, made themselves super rich. This was 100% due to her stewardship of Pakistan.

If she is the best of a bad bunch, God help the place!

Personally I would favour Imran Khan - popular, seems honest, couldn't do a worse job.

Asif

AsifScoob

To the ordinary person in the street, this may be true, but to the politicians there, there are just two things that matter - money and power.

Religion, in a country like Pakistan, when used properly, is just a powerful tool for these people.

Saying it's JUST a religion thing is too simplistic.

Asif

AsifScoob

LOL! Agreed.

I find some of the greatest generalists are to be found on SN!

Asif

AsifScoob

Agree, to a certain extent.

Going further, I believe Musharraf was behind it, as opposed to a religious maniac, acting alone. He easily has the most to gain. He could pop off who he wants and scare the poo poo out of anyone left.

At the same time he will say, "See, I told you there was a terrorist problem in this country! Lets ban all opposition parties." etc etc.

I reckon he is following Mugabe's model of despotism for life!

I personally hope he follows President Zia's model and believe that what goes around...

Asif

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

Asif,

I think you'll agree that those who aim to gain money and power in a country such as Pakistan, you must appeal to the religious and manipulate them to your own ends. That is what all Pakistani politicians have ever done.

You accuse Bhutto of being corrupt, that she may be - but she was brave enough to give her life, knowing it was under great threat, to the ideals she believed in - more than the politicians in this country would ever do I don't think many politicians could be accused of being honest; but I find it hard to criticise her on her ideals - which were all very nobel in all but the most fundamental of minds.

The problem now lies in that Pakistan is now seen as a lawless, backwards, and fundamental in the eyes of the world. And the Clerics who sit in Quetta are at the bottom of it all.

I think its fair to say that Pakistan has a choice to make - follow the clerics into the hellstorm that would result in them going the way of religious fundamentalism, or moving towards 'western' liberalism.. unfortunately, for the people of Pakistan, I believe it will be the former.

Leslie

Is it right for the International community to interfere in the politics of another country. Are you proposing yet another Iraq?

I am very sorry to hear of her assassination, I think she might well have done a great deal of good for her country had she been elected. Pakistan has not been very good for the Bhutto family.

Les

andythejock01wrx

Difficult to be certain who killed her at this stage.

I certainly think that the Musharraf Govt is culpible in failing to provide sufficient protection (although she was warned and she did accept the risks of exposure during the election campaign). Just as likely to have been an Alqueda influenced group that would have loved to see the back of her as a female with a pro western stance.

What do you think will happen in Pakistan over the next 12 months Asif ?

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

I think your pretty much on the money there - I don't think Musharraf "did it"; but I do think he turned a blind eye and may have done a "ooooh.. isn't it a terrible shame she's dead *cough*; I think I should cancel the elections and remain President!"

There was rumours that the Musharraf government and the military was responsible for setting up the seige at the Lal Masjid Mosque, in order to allow him to gain some popularity from the 'moderate' majority in Pakistan, as it gave him a chance to appear strong against religious extremism. Personally, I think that theory is a bit far fetched but some colleagues of mine with Pakistani links (including one with a Pakistani wife), were far more supportive of the idea than me.

AsifScoob

Prasius,

I do agree with your first paragraph, to the extent that I had already said the same thing.

The rest, I also largely agree with, but I think the struggle between the fundamental and liberal will continue for a very long time before an outright winner emerges.

There is still an opportinuty for the good to win. The Chief Justice, Chaudhry Iftikhar, (who happens to be a distant relative of mine) is a clear beacon for the followers of law, justice, honesty and fairness to rally to.

I just hope he stays in one piece!

Asif

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

I hope he'd stay in one bit too, and I was quite optimistic after he was reinstated (before he was arrested again.. ) but Musharraf has shown how much he hates the idea of an independent judiciary so many times now I just struggle to see what hope there is for Chaudhry to really make a difference; and quite honestly, I'm surprised he is still breathing.

The only thing I can really say in Musharraf's favour is that I doubt anyone else would have been able to keep a lid on the troubles for as long as he has - unfortunately, his determination to retain power is whats really making him a 'bad person'.

As it stands, the situation in Pakistan is seriously worrying - and I'd like to think the British public understand why it should be a serious concern to them; but I doubt it.

AsifScoob

Andy,

I wouldn't put it past him at all, look what he has to gain? He could cancel the election, she was certainly by far his main opponent and could easily have removed him in an open and free election - he knows this.

Nawaz Sharif has now been given a clear signal, along with all of the others, 'shut up or else!'

Any ensuing chaos (haven't checked the news today) allows Musharraf to impose marshal law, ban the press, opposition etc, whatever he likes. All of which will increase his stranglehold on the country.

When considering who was responsible, don't also put it past him in that one of predecessors, General Zia, had Benazir's Father hung on treason charges. Let's face it, it was a stitch up. It's no big deal to these people to just eliminate their opposition, look at what they see they can gain for themselves?

I think either Musharraf will be assasinated himself, as I believe history shows us this is what happens, but before he does so, he will clamp down on things as strongly as possible.

This worked for Stalin and Mugabe, but those guys ruled countries that had no real idea of Democracy.

Democracy is not completely alien to Pakistan and only those who have something to gain from the dictatorship will support it. Everyone else will want an election. Things will probably get worse before they get better.

Asif

AsifScoob

Understand what you're saying, fair enough.

I believe however, that the Al Qaida/terrorist thing is a recent phenomenon, compared to how long democracy has been struggling for in Pakistan.

From a Western point of view I fully agree with you. From a Pakistani point of view (which I can also do a little) the issues run far deeper.

I am sure that the Al Qaida lot can gain some ground, but at their heart, they are not supported by the people of Pakistan, this is what will be the telling factor, in their longevity there, IMO.

Asif

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

I didn't mean to sound like I ignored the struggle Pakistan has had ever since its inception with governance.

It would be nice if the Pakistani Army just kept its nose out for more than 6 months at a time

The Zohan

Pakistan has had more than its fair share of corrupt politicians. Accusations are a daily occurrance and an easy way of getting rid of or casting aspurtions, mud sticks. I do not remember her ever being convicted of corruption.

I do think she was the best of a bad bunch, not too sure about Khan, do not know enough about him.

As for GTIs 'Naive' comments, maybe, maybe not - she came back to do good from what i can work out, she did not need to she did it to better and for the benefit of the people/country which is pretty noble, especially as she knew there was every chance she would be killed - IMHO.

AsifScoob

Couldn't agree more.

Was not inferring anything on your part, just providing a different perspective. Yes people should be concerned, but not alarmed, yet.

A more calm and thoughtful approach from Western countries is required here, not that anyone is about to invade.

Pakistan still has close connections to the UK, at all levels of society and many behind the scenes . Some of those could be bought into play to provide some leverage on the likes of Musharraf. Worth a try.

Asif

AsifScoob

Hi Paul,

Agree best of a bad bunch, said as much already.

I suggest to look a little more into her and her husbands activities since she came into power. Asif Zardari became a multi multi millionaire in a very short space of time. Not just creaming a little off the top, even Tony Blair might be accused of that.

They reaped a very rich harvest at the countries expense.

Did you know that Zardari owns a huge country estate in Surrey, worth something in the region of £10m? This is just one property out of many. He was about to have it taken over by a developer because he wouldn't pay his bills to his developer, after having loads of work done.

At the last minute he paid his bills as a court had ruled that the developer could simply take posession of the place.

He thought he could get away with it, like he did back in Pakistan, as he would normally have the law in his hands over there. He is an out and out crook, Benazir knew this.

For these people this was just part of the trappings of power. The last thing they want is some pesky little Chief Justice pulling them up on things.

But this sort of thing happens the World over, GW Bush just needs to be more subtle in how he manipulates the law in the US to his purpose.

BB may have actually firmly believed that she was doing a noble deed, was the most honest choice, putting her life on the line, etc etc. She was also clearly after a few extra Rupees and a new holiday home or two.

I think I said previously, is she is the peoples' choice and the best of a bad bunch, just shows how bad the rest are!

It is tragic, I will reiterate, but no loss. Some would argue she had it coming.

Musharrafs turn will come soon I feel. Put it this way I cannot think of a Pakistani Premier that ever retired, more like 'was retired'.

Asif