scoobynutta555

You'd probably find life expectancy rates were higher there a 1000 years ago, and they've probably regressed as a civilisation.

Chip Sengravy

True, and AIDS wasn't invented then either.

Klaatu

You cannot believe all you see on the news. The media is "geared" to deliver shocking "news". African tribes have been fighting for thousands of years however, since the interfereing from misionaries and Empire building countries like the UK the social, economic, religious inequalities and opression are sush huge problems that the slightest "issue", rigged elections for instance, can cause a significant chain event, releasing tension. Because of the factors mentioned above, desperate people do desperate things.

Trying to suggets that Africans and only Africans are guilty of such crimes? Does Hitler, World War Two, Jews and concentration camps (Household items like light shades made out of the skin of prisoners because the comandant's wife liked the tatoos) ring any bells? Bosnian/Croatian religious "conflict"? Savages only in Africa.

Klaatu

Now that is ignorant, but not surprising really. Where do AK47's and t-shirts come from, I wonder?

The Zohan

Hmmm, funny how you are happy to belive that ze Germans where capapble of such things but in Africa it is media Hype, cannot believe all you see.

Oh and where, just where did i try to suggest that Africans where the only people capable of this siort of act. Get off of your defensive high horse mate

I do not suppose any of the other tragedies happened or are happening either in other African countires and the 9 y/okids you see and hear about are just playing soldiers.

Perhaps you should open your eyes to the possibilities, or maybe the aid organisations have it all wrong and 250,000 refugees are just going on the annual holiday!

You cannot have it both ways!

No one has ever said that this does not go on elsewhere, the confilct on Bosnia is recent proof of this although intervention by the west and some bullying and tough action By Clinton and the US (hardly the UN as they where happy to sit around and debate it all whilst the killings went on) helped put pay to it. Ireland now has a peace deal and is being sorted out.

Africa has more than its fair share of problems, apparently mostly caused by the previous occupiers, jyst how long can you keep using the same tired old excuses. these problems are far more deep seated and old than recent colonisations.

I think even you wil argree that killing and maiming just because you do not go go the same church or have more money and food is wrong.

Perhaps the Afrcians should set us all an example and show us how they can work together, put aside differences and make peace, become as one and get on supporting each other. I doubt very much that this will happen.

I for one am a bit tired of seeing the ads asking for aid and help just to see more problems arise, seems the locals do not have a problem reallocating the aid money to buy AK's and landmines instead of concentrating on the people and country itself.

A lot of Africans have little regard for human life as it is cheap, they seem ready to pick up a machette or AK at the drop of a hat. Perhaps they should stop looking for people the blame, looking for people to fight and get on with and more positive approach to their problems!


I would not be so sniffy and dismissive at Chip Sengravys comments as i think you will find a few people nodding at his comments and not just right wingers.

Klaatu

"Hmmm, funny how you are happy to belive that ze Germans where capapble of such things but in Africa it is media Hype, cannot believe all you see."

Clearly you do not understand the differences. The Germans went about eliminating a race of people on an industrial scale, man, woman, child, in an industrial way. Independent media weren't there to report on their actions unlike today, even in war torn countries. What happened in Kenya is a result of hundreds of years of interference including known underlying differences.

"Oh and where, just where did i try to suggest that Africans where the only people capable of this siort of act. Get off of your defensive high horse mate"

You implied as much with your post "Funny that never the fault of the people throwing children back into a burning church, rioting, murdering, looting, maiming." in this thread about Kenyan unrest. You might want to make your point clearer if you don't want it taken out of context.

"I do not suppose any of the other tragedies happened or are happening either in other African countires and the 9 y/okids you see and hear about are just playing soldiers."

Desperate people do desperate things, even as young as 9. Even 12 yr olds in the US beat toddlers to death with a base ball bat because of screaming. If you've grown up in an age of violence, and been influenced by violence, then you will, most likely, be violent, wherever you live.

"Perhaps you should open your eyes to the possibilities, or maybe the aid organisations have it all wrong and 250,000 refugees are just going on the annual holiday!"

Aid organisations have a vested interest in keeping the status quo, after all there is a lot of money to be made during war. With any large population, wars/fighting leads to mass migrations away from troubles, these people tend to congregate. Most people just want to get on with their lives.

"You cannot have it both ways!"

I don't and I know I can't.

"No one has ever said that this does not go on elsewhere, the confilct on Bosnia is recent proof of this although intervention by the west and some bullying and tough action By Clinton and the US (hardly the UN as they where happy to sit around and debate it all whilst the killings went on) helped put pay to it."

Well, a lot of people I know who were there actually could not intervene (For many reasons) and simply had to stand by and watch. The tensions are still there however, just not covered by the media.

"Ireland now has a peace deal and is being sorted out."

Granted. But a political "mistake" may change that.

"Africa has more than its fair share of problems, apparently mostly caused by the previous occupiers, jyst how long can you keep using the same tired old excuses."

It's not an excuse, it's fact. Installing "colonial" values (Meaning we'll tell you how to live (Which in certain cases is good), what to eat, how to read, what religion to believe in etc etc etc) into a culture that does not recongise those values is wrong.

"these problems are far more deep seated and old than recent colonisations."

Yes that is true, but to agravate that with "foreign" values and culture isn't the cure either. Humans have been fighting for thousands of years, the Crusades etc. Religion (and therefore ignorance) played, and still plays, a major role in these conflicts. Also economic, social, cultural and political disparities eventually leads to same.

"I think even you wil argree that killing and maiming just because you do not go go the same church or have more money and food is wrong."

The Crusades?

"Perhaps the Afrcians should set us all an example and show us how they can work together, put aside differences and make peace, become as one and get on supporting each other. I doubt very much that this will happen."

I agree, it will never happen. Neither will it happen in western societies who impose their "culture" on others. Neither will it happen between Christians and Muslims....there will always be that "indifference" and "intollerance" largely brought about by ignorance and lack of education.

"I for one am a bit tired of seeing the ads asking for aid and help just to see more problems arise, seems the locals do not have a problem reallocating the aid money to buy AK's and landmines instead of concentrating on the people and country itself."

Agreed. But I do know from real experience that, in some African states such as Ethiopia, that a lot of that money is spent where it should be. However, Govn't aid usually has some "strings" attached, like mining rights etc.

"A lot of Africans have little regard for human life as it is cheap, they seem ready to pick up a machette or AK at the drop of a hat."

To defend themselves perhaps from a pack of young, male, jobless rioters with nothing better to do? If other people, and other cultures and poeples from other nations, treat you as being of no value then I am sure you will treat others likewise.

"Perhaps they should stop looking for people the blame, looking for people to fight and get on with and more positive approach to their problems!"

If you've actually been to Africa and seen, first hand, what these people are trying to do (With the help of aid agencies, but I still despise most of their actions, but help more so from within their own culture and comunities) rather than form an opinion based on a news story then you may actually have a better understanding of their situation.

"I would not be so sniffy and dismissive at Chip Sengravys comments as i think you will find a few people nodding at his comments and not just right wingers."

From Chip...

"True, and AIDS wasn't invented then either."

AIDS in humans is alleged to have originated from a bite, or other skin breaking wound, from an infected Chimp, no-one knows exactly. The only "civilisations" which "invent" deseases are western "civilisations", a proven fact. So to "blame" Africa as the "inventor" of AIDS is just pure ignorance.

"Just goes to show, apart from brandishing AK47's and wearing gaudy T-shirts, those savages over there are no further developed than they were 1000 years ago. "

A thousand years ago and more there were no AK47's, no sailing ships chaining and removing peoples (And sometimes just ditching 70 or more in one go overboard, to show them how we valued their lives), decimating societies etc. A thousand years ago and more was quite advanced, look up Axum for instance. Since then however, with external influences and internal differences, their societal fabric has been destroyed by western countries with only one goal, reasouces (Slaves, game hunting, oil, gas, diamonds etc etc etc).

PS. Look up Mitochondrial DNA and learn something.

The Zohan

I tell you what , you stick to you blinkered views and me mine, ultimately Africa will do what it will do, there will always be someone else to blame, easier than taking responsibility for it and getting on with rebuilding.

What you wil find is the west (who BTW has pumped in billions of dollars in aid programmes) will get a little tired of it.

Of and bringing up the slave trade - yes all us brits still celebrate that, past history, you failed to mention that it was a brit who was instrumental in bringing it to and end. Lesson learned, moved on, no more slave trade. Brits do tend to leard from our mistakes. Oh and whilst on the subject and as you brought it up - Africans where more that happy to plunder their neighbouring tribes for victims to sell to the white slave traders, not much has really chaged values wise has it.

Africa by and large does not seem to learn by its mistakes, until that happen it will not move on or progress much. The only people suffereing are the ordianary people...

Klaatu

"I tell you what , you stick to you blinkered views and me mine, ultimately Africa will do what it will do, there will always be someone else to blame, easier than taking responsibility for it and getting on with rebuilding."

Blinkered? I don't think so, rather informed to be more accurate.

"What you wil find is the west (who BTW has pumped in billions of dollars in aid programmes) will get a little tired of it."

As I stated before, these "aid programs" have strings attached. Nigerian oil (UK the USA), Algerian gas (Russia), etc etc...now China is making significant "inroads" to African reasources.

"Of and bringing up the slave trade - yes all us brits still celebrate that, past history, you failed to mention that it was a brit who was instrumental in bringing it to and end. Lesson learned, moved on, no more slave trade. Brits do tend to leard from our mistakes."

John Newton, yes he was a Brit. Early religious instruction. He was a brutally abused servant on a slave ship. He became an owner of his own slave ship which after weathering a severe storm, he found God again. Wrote the hynm, Amasing Grace, and the rest as we say, is history. Great man.

"Oh and whilst on the subject and as you brought it up - Africans where more that happy to plunder their neighbouring tribes for victims to sell to the white slave traders, not much has really chaged values wise has it."

As I said, deperate people will do desperate things. And they also plundered tribes to secure money from aid programs. Those victims traded to the UN, released, recaptured, traded to the UN and released again. What's your point?The CIA pays people to do the same in Afghanistan, Iraq etc etc, sends them to Guantanomo Bay, then to Egypt.

"Africa by and large does not seem to learn by its mistakes, until that happen it will not move on or progress much. The only people suffereing are the ordianary people... "

The term "To draw a line in the sand" originated in Africa. It was drawn by a white man. Two rocks and two sticks still mark the spot today as the dividing line between two groups of peoples.

Martin2005

I think one of the problems here is people saying things like 'Africa has to sort it's own problems out'
Whilst this of course is to a great extent true, there is no one Africa to do the 'sorting out'. and we in the West must never just turn our backs and say 'we tried but failed'. Too many innocent lives are at stake there and it's as much our responsibility to sort things out as theirs, ultimately you and I thousands of miles away have more chance of solving the problems, than someone living in poverty in Africa.

We should do more, we must do more!

The Zohan

Well if there is no one to sort it out then invading, occupying andd doing it ourselves is perhaps the answer!

You cannot just keep throwing aid , money and help at it if the core, the people in charge are rotten/corrupt/bad/stupid. All you do is perpetuate the problem by providing and effectivley endorsing and providing funds and food/support for what is going on.


Klattu seems to think he/she is a genius and knows all the excuses (even if some are pretty transparent) and washes over what they do not wish to answer - then perhaps he/she could tell us just how to fix it!

then perhaps he/she could send the 'path to peace and prosperity' to the African leaders so they can get on with it, i will not hold my breath.


So will the ordinary person in the street un the UK, Europe , USA keep giving - time will tell.


Klattu - as i go through life my actions have a consequences, i take full responsibility for my actions and their consequences as i am a reasonably responsible adult. In pretty much all of your replies it appears that everyone else is to blame, do you not think that Africa/ns could do with a little inward loooking and soul searching, looking at what they are doing, the genocide, the problems and start to realise that they are no just by standers and specatators and are actually participants and players and take some responsibility.

Klattu your attitiude also seems to be one of it is not their fault it is everyone else to blame. In life i think you will find that people with this attitude and outlook do not get on, prosper or fit into the reest of society. Something(s) needs to change.

Apparently i have so much to learn so i am sitting back waiting for the next installment...


Klattu - care to comment on this, who exactly is responsible to this man's rise to fame and fortune
https://www.scoobynet.com/non-scooby...nder-zuma.html

Suresh

How is it possible that countries like China and India rose up from colonisation and developed industries to take over western companies and beat them at their own game. Whereas old African colonies, erm, didn't

I simply can't subscribe to the "its whiteys fault" school of thought.

The Zohan

Quiet, it waers a little thin and holds little water when you see others have done just that and got on with it!

scoobynutta555

I could possibly answer that question but some self-flagellating left wing moron would probably call me a racist.

Klaatu

I'll end my contribution to this thread by asking just one question, as I have never stated "it's whiteys fault" (Certainly whiteys influence, and the line in the sand comment if fact) have any of you who believe colonisation, foriegn Govn't aid, foriegn military intervention, installed Govn'ts, installed western culture and values etc hasn't contributed in some way to the current situation in Africa, the continent as a whole, actually been to Africa, lived there, studied their cultures, language and history? If you answer no, then your opinions are based on TV content from the comfort of your armchair and little based in fact or reality.

Suresh

Enjoyed a 3 week fly-drive holiday in SA in 2003. Well-mantained roads. Kruger park was fantastic whilst Jo'burg was unsafe at best. Doesn't mean I know Africa of course, but with the collective sympathy (support) recently shown by the African Union for Mugabe I can't say that I want to!

Zimbabwe | The virtues of isolationism | Economist.com

Klaatu

Holidays don't count IMO, that's, usually, not living within the community and being an active part of it.

The African Union is based in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. Ethiopia is ruled by an equally corrupt president who, in 2005, arrested opposition leaders, tourtured them while in prison, some were killed. Hundreds of opposition supporters were killed too. No calls from the international community to oust him though.

As with Mugabe, he is backed by the military and Police, and some of the foreign aid funds this. The military support their leaders because they are well looked after, unlike their civilian counterparts. But for the west to intervene and attempt to remove these despot leaders is the wrong approach IMO, been tried and failed in the past. Stopping all foreign aid is also wrong IMO, there really is a need there (And I have seen first hand some of the positive changes that aid has brough about, even money from Live Aid is still working, so some of it does work, but not all of it). No, the solution is for these African states to sort out their internal problems themselves, and if that takes 100 years, so be it.

The west may take the intiative to influence an outcome, but usually (As in the US' support in Afghanistan during the 1980's, which lead to the attack on the WTC in 2001) it backfires in some way.

scoobynutta555

Thought you ended your contribution?

If you're willing to perpetuate a very bad situation by waiting 100 years or more (more I'd guess if ever) for them to sort out their own problems what kind of humanitarian are you? Propping up despotic and genocidal regimes like this with western money masquerading as foreign aid is wholly wrong IMHO. Best to sort it out for them if the common will of the west and the African populations show this is welcome and warranted, or leave well alone.

I haven't been to many places including Africa, but I'd hope to know more about the situation from a breadth of sources, not just left-wing BBC news programmes Following that argument nobody can have any opinions about anywhere unless they have immersed themselves in that culture for several years, what nonsense. At the end of the day I have a right to my opinions as through non-direct means a portion of my money is being sent over there in foreign aid or the wiping of debts.

Klaatu

The other post warranted a responce, so does this. An opinion is just that, an opinion, and uninformed one at that. The only way to find out about a culture/nation is to be involed in it. Yes, you can read about it, but that is just someone elses opinion. Now do you understand?

I know it's a poor analogy however, at times, cultures, collectively, behave like toddlers, you cannot force them to do something another way, you'll get resistance.

Allowing another culture to address it's internal issues is being very humanitarian in fact. We know from history that interfereing leads to even more problems. We can assist and educate peoples and cultures towards a better way of life. If they chose to ignore, then so be it. I know for a fact that in some African countries it's taken 25 years to start to see changes in attitudes to certain cultural traditions, this has largely been brought about by infomation availability (Internet) and communication (Mobiles) in the younger generations. They are changing.

Martin2005

Well said