stilover

Pete. Stop asking for proof. Everything you have said cannot be proved. The figure you keep on quoting are all guess work. Not fact.

You keep on telling us that illegal immigrants are refused NHS care unless it's an emergency. You are wrong. My best mates wife is a nurse, and they treat all comers. Legal or otherwise. That is the problem. That is why the NHS uses so much money. If we adopted the American stance of paying for your treatment or paying through health insurance then the NHS would start turning illegal immigrants away. We don't, so they don't.

Maybe you'd then argue that aswell as us paying health insurance, the Government should treat illegal immigrants care of the British tax payer, as it's "The right thing to do".

How do you know that immigrants produce more tax than they take in benefits? You don't. The Government don't know, so how do you?

You are still yet to prove to me that most of those illegal immigrants who run through the Channel Tunnel are here to work. Maybe you have a link to a Government report that say's just that.

GC8WRX

quality

Martin2005

Imigration isn't just a hot topic here in the UK, it's an issue across the 'rich' world.

It saddens me that we want to pull the ladder up and deny others the opportunities we were, as an accident of birth, given.
To make matters worse we in the rich west do virtually **** all to help the developing world, then wonder why less fortunate individuals want to come here.
If you lot really cared about imigration then you'd be more concerned about tackling the causes of this issue rather than just bleating on about it's effects.

OllyK

But that's just your guess. How many of the 600K (let's pick a figure estimates between 310K and 870K) will have been here 10 years or more? I have no idea, it coudl be 5% it could be 95% I have no way of knowing. If it's 5% then, 30,000 illegals are costing £1 billion so that's £20 billion for 600K. If it's 50% then it's 2 billion. That's the problem with guesswork, with this size of numbers, a small margin or error can make a big difference.

It's kind of a moot point though, if they are illegal they shouldn't be here anyway offsetting the cost of the leagl immigrants anyway, I don't think you're suggesting an open door policy for the UK are you?

Great, so you'll be able to tell me how many illegals were treated last year as emergency cases and how many were turned down??

[quote]
So will it effect waiting lists for hip replacements and other elective surgey? Nope.

Will it affect transplants? Nope, because if you are an illegal immigrant you cant have one.

So the likely casualty (boom boom) of illegal immigrants with be A&E - I.e. emegencies. And waiting times in A&E are at thier lowest for years.

[\quote]

Since when is dialysis performed in A&E?

The "reported" waiting times for A&E are reduced, but in terms of time for walking through the door to getting treatement on the injury, they haven't changed much. What we have now is a triage nurse, once you see here the timer essentially get's reset, so they can drag the treatment time out to almost 8 hours without actually hitting the 4 hour deadlines etc.

The same applies to knee operations. This article claims it takes a year to get a knee replacement. What seems to get missed is that from initial diagnosis by a GP and referal for further investigation to actually getting the operation is massively more than that. My father in law had his knee done last year after a 10 year wait. He had to finish work early and has been on disability for all that time, so we're not talking a minor twinge here. The process for getting the op involves going through a very convoluted process each with it's own 3, 4 or 6 month waiting list limit. The process also has nice feedback points, such that he saw a consultant, who said that physio may help, went off and had 3 months physio, then had to join anther waiting list for a consultant who then suggested it might help if the knee was flushed, then another waiting list for a consultant who then suggested physio again and around and around we go.

And I'd say that even 1 person extra that shouldn't be there is too many.

Yes but we're not talking about legal immigrants here are we, we're talking about illegals. How many illegals got turned down for non emergency treatment last year?

stilover

It saddens me too. Saddens me that to disagree with the influx of immigrants you get labeled a Racist.

We give Billions in aid to Africa etc. Maybe you should divert your anger to the Government of said African countries that allow their population do starve, just so they can pocket all the money for themselves.

Mugabe (Spell check) is prime example. I'd have no problem with our Government stepping in to bring him down and help the country instigate a proper government. Get rid of all the corruption in Africa, and solve half the problem.

PeteBrant

**** me - I'm not going to make the point again, if you don't get it by now, you never will.

stilover

What am I supposed to get? Guesswork is fact?

PeteBrant

What that got to do with illegal immigrants?

Up until last year I lived with a Senior Sister in aan A&E department - We can all quote anecdotal bollocks

In general - waiting times have come down - simple as..

It isn't - it was done after review by the NHS which is the policy - They felt the womans consition warranted it - In other words, they weren;t motivated by cost, but by need.

Some people are odd like that.
[/QUOTE]
Nope. I agree with controlled immigration - It clearly is of beneift to everyone.

Having said that, I don't agree with sending a woman that we are pefectly able to help, some to die.

Martin2005

I haven't been the one using labels matey

I absolutely do hold some African leadership as absolutley responsible for the suffering of millions of people...you wont get me to argue against that point.

We need to examine our roles in this situation as well though

PeteBrant

It's not ****ng guesswork - The revenue generated by immigrants is fact the cost to the country for immigrants is fact the net balance is fact.

Your clinging to this fallacy that there are a load of degenerate freeloaders - And its based on absolutely nothing.

SetoN

1st) Gratz on the 1k post mark

2nd) The point i was trying to make was that if your making £6 billion from Immigrants coming into this country(the government), you try to cover up the fact that you are allowing more than you should into the country so that you can continue making money as normal. Not let everyone know that you have let too many slip through the net and we are now in crisis and have to 'close the door' and fail to keep increasing the money pot.

Now the media do not make £6 billion out of immigrants, so why lie about the increasing number of them to the public? Arguably if the source is weak i will pay no atention to the media most of the time.

thats the point i was trying to make... i think

OllyK

BBC NEWS | Health | A&E wait figures 'being fiddled' - some of the tactics used to fiddle waiting times. Similar things are done by GP's to keep their waiting lists down by refusing to book appointments more than 24 hours in advance - remember the TB interview during the last election. Our local surgery still employ the same policy.

Another interesting article. So waiting times come down at the expense of patient care?

So where you draw the line? Not much point having regulations there if they are ignored.

OllyK

And you keep citing figures for LEGAL immigrants when this issue is about those that are here ILEGALLY.

jods

Wrong. As part of the benefits system a % is paid into NI from everone collecting welfare.


I just have a problem with - and let's face it, Thieves, robbers, conmen, conwomen usually from the African countries but increasingly from Eastern Europe coming into the UK with one aim - RIP off our system without putting anything back.

In my old school days we would have refererred to that as a Parasitic relationship. Thanks to Bliar and NuLabia the UK is awash with parasites.

How long does someshing survive if it is being eaten alive ???

Not long - Time to get out the sugical spirit and wash them away...

Martin2005

A 1000 posts, and most of them on this thread

I think it's healthy to challenge all source of info, underlying most of them is actually opinion not fact, which is of course equally dished out by both sides of the debate

stilover

He does keep on ignoring that fact doesn't he.

Maybe his Government factual reports would mean fcukall then.

PeteBrant

Right - which are somewhere between 250000 and 600000 - And it doesnt take a genuis to know that the cost to the state for these people is next to nothing because they cant claim for anything.

PeteBrant

Pretty much as it is, if you are an emeergency case, it doesn't matter whether you are an illegal immigrant or not.

You would have to be a special kind of ****** if your first thought when seeing a "foreign" looking man with a knife sticking out of his chest was "has he paid tax" and not" how can I help him?"

OllyK

Except for treatment on the NHS

OllyK

And as we have established, kidney dialysis is not an emergency treatment performed in A&E. So do you now agree it was right to send this woman home or would you like to move your goal posts some more?

I don't disagree, but she wasn't a stab victim in need of immediate A&E care.

PeteBrant

Emergency treatment only yes.

And it makes perfect sense that the average illegal immigrant will be this massively accident prone person - a bit like Buster Keaton, tripping over things and breaking his arms with alarming regularity.

And not at all like your average person and paying a visit to A&E perhaps once every 5 years or so.

OllyK

Was the woman in this case being treated in A&E?

stilover

NHS care.
How do they get money to eat? Crime.

Crime costs money, in insurance, insurance premiums, Police, Fire brigade etc etc.

All of which needs paying for.

PeteBrant

Do you not read? I have said, at least 4 times, that it is emergency care, or care deemed immediatly necessary by the NHS

They obviously deemed it necessary.

I'll take thier judgement over yours.


You obviously do disagree, she was a cancer sufferer, but whats the difference? You're saying the same thing. "She hasnt paid, send her home."

Nice.

PeteBrant

Hang on, just adding to your list of sweeping generalisations of people that arent British


(i)They are all freeloaders
(ii)They are all criminals


Carry on.



A minute ago they were working cash in hand and paying no tax, now they are all criminals.

PeteBrant

Initially? I have no idea - Do you?

They obviously deemd it necessary to give her dialysis despite her being an illegal immigrant.

I would say that probably meant she was pretty ill.

OllyK

And as we have repeatedly said, the NHS aren't renowned for checking the immigration status of potential patients. If they didn't know she was here illegally then they would give her the same treatement as a UK citizen, regardless of whether it was immediately necessary or not.

PeteBrant

I reckon if you need dialysis, it's pretty urgent.

I don't think it mattered whether she was here leagally not, the judgement was made she needed the treatement

I'll go with the supposition that they did know she was an illegal immigrant at some point and carried on based on need, you know like medical staff are trained to do, if it's all the same to you - What you suppose is up to you.

OllyK

Define "urgent".

I'd say if somebody needs a&e treatment, then fine, it's urgent, give it to them. If it isn't sufficiently urgent to require A&E then that's a reasonable cut off. This wasn't an A&E case.

kingofturds

iTrader: (1)

Ironically 2 of the Polish where I work have just gone back to Poland for treatment because they reckon the NHS is a load of tosh