The Zohan

It is a real kicker but someone has to stand up and say "no we cannot treat everyone". Yes, even tougher if face to face but is still needs doing.

If she had have continued to be treated then what happens with the next and the next and the next ad infinitum, it would not stop and there would be more prseeure on the NHS, its staff and facilties, its finances and ultimatelty its ability to provide care. As much as anything it is a meaasage to thise that would come from outside to the UK to use the NHS. You could say that everybody everywhere deserves good healthcare, yes they do. Sadly not all can have it and we do need to protect what we have or there wil lbe chaos in the UK.

If you think the NHS can cope then you live in cloud cukkoo land.

Yes, ideal world we would be able to treat all comers, not an ideal world, far from it!

Martin2005

You make a good point and of course I understand that principle.

But if you believe all the spin in the press about the NHS, then you must live next door to me at No.2 'Cloud Cukkoo Land'

The Zohan

Martin.

I believe it as i have witnessed first hand*, i have friends, family and neighbours who work within the NHS, I myself have worked on events and forums for the NHS and it people.

*I my self have worked on events for NAHAT, RCN, NHS Alliance and the NHS the ADC and LGA at all levels since 1993

Martin, i know what goes on!

Martin2005

Then you will know that everything spun by the press is not entirely true then.

The Zohan

And i know what i believe first hand from relaible scourses as well as seeing first hand Martin so do not try to spin what i have said mate!


I have seen and heard about the reality and then seen the spin politiciancs have put on it so i know this works both ways!

Also, if enough people you know and trust are telling you pretty much the same thing then chances are there is some truth behind it.

I rarely take things at face value if i deam them real important and look into and do my research as required.

Martin2005

Is that your way of avoiding answering the question?

The Zohan

what question have i avoided?

It seems to me you just see what you want and are blinkered to any other possibility, TBH i do not feel i need to justify anything to.

Martin just carry on regardless, eventually you will be proved right or wrong

Oh and i do not know if anyone has looked at the poll figures recently

More of this please 68 72.34%
Fund healthcare for whoever needs it 3 3.19%
Charge costs to home government 23 24.47%
Abolish Welfare State for anyone 9 9.57%


this does not add up to 100%, closer to 110% - must be fiugures from NL

stilover

So you're right and everyone else is wrong? Brainwashed by the press and media.

What's it like at cloud Cukkoo land?

The Zohan

I think you are wasting your time and efforts TBH, Martin is best left to his opinions and beliefs, he knows best it appears

Funny when people do not like the way the pol is going have you noticed that they then claim that the poll is not representative of the real world, i would love to see the same poll run in the real world, i guess the fugures would not be that much different...

Martin2005

Me blinkered!

For god sake, precisely because I don't believe thall the spin from government or the press I suggest makes me the opposite of blinkered.

On balance I feel that the huge investment in the NHS has to have made an improvement in overall quality of care, waiting lists, wages etc etc. I also know the appalling state the NHS was in 10 years ago, and that it would be nigh of impossible not to have improved upon that.

I don't believe (by any means) that it's anywhere near perfect. As always the truth lies somewhere between these two positions.

The Zohan

The facts are she has been sent home and, this will send out a message that the NHS is not going to treat the world.
Right or wrong.

end of.

Martin2005

How do you get to that view from my posts?

I don't believe anyone spin, not the press, not the governments.

OllyK

It certainly is

And if you give in once, do you think that is likely to increase or decrease the number of these sorts of cases? After you've done it once, where do you draw the line and how do you justify doing so when you've already made an exception?

It may be immoral from your POV but I have little doubt it's a significant vote winning issue in France. Can you explain how cutting agricultural subsidies will help Africa. I can understand other parts of the world that are producing food such as the Carribean or Southern America, but I'm not aware of any (maybe Kenya) significant agricultural producers in Africa (certainly not with the demise of Zimbabwe) and indeed we are sending food aid out to many African countries.

OllyK

Of course not, the NHS is in a far worse state than the government would have you believe.

stilover

Martin

The spin from the Government is that all the Billions they have put into the NHS has worked. Waiting list are down, Patient care has improved, Nurses are happy and paid well, and everybody gets the same healthcare.

So I don't see what you are saying?

My best mates wife is a nurse, and believe me not all is well within the NHS.
First off, she has a manager, who has a manager, who has a manager etc.

Middlesbrough has alot of immigrants, both legal and illegal. She see's alot of immigrants day to day. Too many (her words)

If immigration isn't delt with expect to see ever increasing Tax to pay for it all.

If I need an operation in America, Netherlands, Germany etc, I'd be expected to pay for it. Not just hop off the plane and visit the nearest hospital for free care.
When we go abroad we pay insurance, that will pay for any emergency treatment we may need. How many Immigrants take out insurance before coming to Britain for the NHS Hoilday? None.

GC8WRX

Its not our problem, there are many peolpe in this country who have missed out on life saving cancer treatments because of the post code lottery of the NHS.
Ask one of them if its ok to treat an immagrant instead of them and see what reaction you get!


Herceptin ring a bell? use the money saved from treating her to perscribe a course of that to the pensioner in sunderland who cant get it cos she lives two miles out of a certian postcode!

Martin2005

Well the CAP means Billions of Euros of subsidies for European farmers, effectively closing our markets to agricultural exports from outside. This hurts places like Africa disproportionately, because they have (largely) agricultural based economies and can't trade their way out of poverty (this is particularly annoying given the 'trade not aid' mantra of the right). Africa could be the bread basket of the world, instead the basket case.

scoobynutta555

No. And I'd limit benefit to 5 years throughout your life. Much like the US system introduced by Clinton which saw mass %'s of unemployed suddenly finding work.

The Zohan

agreed, and with WR1's comments.

Clinton took a real pasting, he was demonised for these ideas, all the US human rights nutters and even branded a racist (as a lot of the people targetted where black) jumped on his back.

In the end it worked, and a lot of people had to admit he was right and they were wrong in his radical approach - as it worked!

I suppose it is having the ***** and courage of your convictions to do it as much as anything.

Can yo see Brown having that sort of backbone or guts or conviction, doubt it!

Something Clinton was not short of IMHO

The Zohan

Martin, come on, Zimbabwe was a major producer, this was ruined by the government and evicting the farmers and landowners and handing it over to the people (who just wanted to subsistence farm) who then let it all go to wrack and ruin, blame where blame is due or you really weaken you argument.



Kenya, on its way down the toilet, not much to do with subsidies, much more to do with land and religion and wealth.

Africas problems are far more complex and a lot more to do with africa than european farming and subsidies!

It is also quite capable of blaming everybody else for its problems and does not need any help from you

The Zohan

General News of Friday, 11 January 2008

In which case there is not case or problem with her deportation surely, maybe the Ghanain govt trying to get out of paying and providing for her casre and treatment and expecting the UK NHS to foot the bill???

Martin2005

I'm not blaming farm subsidies for all Africa problems (and never did), but removing CAP would make a big difference to African agricultural development and exports.

scoobynutta555

Exports to the fertile European Union who are largely self sustaining? But then you'd increase the carbon footprint of distances of travel for food and contribute to the destruction of the world as we know it! OOhhh to be a left wing hand wringer!

Martin2005

Left wing?

So we're all happy to pay billions in tax into anti-competitive EU farm subsidies then? But get all grumpy about non UK passport holders getting treatment on the NHS?

The truth is we wouldn't have an imigration crisis if we (the developed world) did more to develop the developing world...think of it as prevention if you like.

And I don't think the global warming/climate change arguement is in any way valid in this case, either they export to us, or we export to them. I don't think the French had the planets climate in mind when designing these obsurd subsidies.

PS you don't actually agree with The CAP do you?

renny

iTrader: (2)

May have been a little more tactile there stilover but i have to agree with you.

Leslie

I do not uphold the uncontrolled immigration that has been encouraged for the past years and I don't support those who freeload on our country with respect to all the benefits which are available to them as I have made clear well enough in the past.

This is an entirely different situation. Thsi woman was here legally in the first place for 5 years and was receiving cancer treatment before the visa ran out.

I say that it is morally wrong to refuse her an extension to her visa and to boot her out of the country knowing full well that her own country wont treat her as has been shown to be the case. How can it be right to send someone to a certain and unpleasant death? Is there no sense of pity for a human being in such an awful position when we could save her life with minimum trouble?

I find it hard to believe that so many can be so selfish as to deny her that help that she needs.

I hear that there is a move to get her brought back here for the treatment so save her life. I sincerely hope it succeeds.

Les

fatherpierre

You can't blame her for trying to hang on. I would.

I'm sure with all the publicity it's had she'll get the treatment.

kingofturds

iTrader: (1)

Maybe if they did not p1ss away billions in aid fighting each other they could pay for better healthcare for their people.

DocJock

Are you arguing just for the sake of it now?

From the link posted by Paul in post#111...

The doctor accompanying her said he could not disclose the ailment she was suffering from but added that it had been certified that Ms Sumani could continue with treatment in Ghana.

When asked whether she was being deported, one of the immigration officers accompanying Ms Sumani said, ''this is more of a removal.'' Sources at the airport said Ms Sumani would continue with treatment at the Korle Bu Teaching Hospital in Accra.

If we are to make an exception for this woman, why just her? Why not the millions in Ghana suffering fom other terminal illnesses?

Her treatment was being provided by the NHS when she was here legally in this nation, that is the National Health service, not the International Health Service.

scoobynutta555

I don't agree with the CAP but at the end of the day the money is staying in Europe not being spent on AK47's in a different continent

Yes she was here legally, then her visa ran out and she was here illegally. It's not morally wrong in my book to have her removed. The UK offered to pay the first 3 months treatment but this was refused by the Ghanaian gov't.

I suggest her 'supporters' make a whip for the £1000 a month treatment she needs in Ghana.

Is this more morally wrong than a long term Uk citizen and taxpayer, retiring to Spain for a few years, then returning to the UK in the hope of NHS treatment and then being refused? I don't think so.

What of the thousands of Africans here suffering from Aids and getting treatment? I suppose all those bleating about morals will be first to stand up for these if they are deported?