STi-Frenchie

Sorry but I'm not going to read your WAY to lenghty OP -- I looked at it and thought, I have only 25 years left to live and I'm f**ked if I'm spending it on reading long posts -- and have skimmed over the others. Fair play to you if you are winning, go for it.

LG John

Martin at the moment I'm playing NL$200 with $1/2 blinds.

Shark Man

Now that really puts things into perspective


That's the biggest problem with any half decent job; The take-home amount after tax and NI is pretty dismal.

Martin2005

OK not crazy money then.

I play Multi and Single Table S'n'G mainly, to various degrees of success

Good luck with your endeavour, as you know there are lots of folks out there making a really good living at it

RS Grant

PMSL

All the best with your choice, seem to be riding the highs and lows well enough... like someone else said, takes ***** to jack 'the norm' in for something like this.


Cheers,
Grant

r32

Thats good, I was wondering how it was going, brave move ........ I wish you luck.

Gutmann pug

Fair play to you for having a crack at it. There are a lot of us out there who will get old saying we wish we had tried something, myself included. At least you can say you gave it a go. I hope it comes good for you in the end.

Just dont make yourself ill doing it.......

_RIP_

Jay m A

iTrader: (2)

Cheers for the update Kenny, looking forward to the annual report - graphs / spreadsheets included

Account deleted by request

Fair play to you SB, have kept an eye on your progress on your blog (boy you can type )

I think it takes massive ba11s and courage to do what you have done and get out of the day to day rat run.

I love a game of poker and find even a couple of games runnning concurrently quite stressful. To do 12 is mighty impressive.

There will be plenty of people waiting to say I told you so if things do fail but it looks like you have got through the first difficult patch and things should get easier from here. Although bad patches will always happen you will hopefully have learnt how to deal with them.

Keep us up to speed, good luck with it.

chop

LG John

A good post and now that I'm fresh with a coffee in hand I'll address some of the points.

I was a local authority planner and as you say it wasn't exactly a slog fest as regards to work. I absolutely do more work in 4h playing poker than in a whole day at the planning office! I was also entitled to flexi-time, 30 days paid annual leave and of course the excellent pension scheme. However, the thought of being a local authority planner....scratch that, being a local authority employee for the rest of my working life filled me with dread. I'd simply go insane such was the monotony and the 'vibe' of the place. I mean no disrespect to LA workers but, IMHO 'most' (not all) people that are there have little drive or ambition in life. They are happy to work the same job for 40y gradually working up a salary scale and renewing the car scheme focus/golf every 3 years. Therefore, as good as the pension was I knew I'd never realize a full working career there to properly cash in on it.

As for money I was on £28k pa and realistically could have probably moved up to £35k within an LA environment and about £50k eventually if I made the switch to private planning. Anything over that would require a combination of luck, perhaps extra training and most importantly drive. It was by far the later that I was missing and so I would never have found myself being a director in some planning consultancy on big money. A guaranteed £50k would have been nice but after tax and NI the take home per hour worked isn't that great (relative to tax free gambling) and in most private planning consultancies you'll be working a good 45-50h a week and only paid for 35/37.

Taking my current hourly rate of $70(£35) an hour and multiplying it by 100 hours a month and 10 months of the year I would make £35k a year with 8 weeks off per year. That's about £2900 a month and probably in the region of the take home pay of someone on £50-55k a year and for a lot less hours. However, I am nowhere near my limit of what I can achieve. If I can earn the same bb/100 hands at the level above then my annual 'pay' would double and there are still many more levels above that. I might (should) also improve as a player with more and more experience and therefore win more at the level I'm playing just now.

It's this potential that drives me and my motives are purely financial. As a planner I knew I'd be capped at around £50k a year and I was still several years from achieving that. As a poker player I can hopefully achieve that wage in 2008 but there is potential for so much more.

However, there are draw backs as you mention in your post above. The lack of social interaction was a real problem as I'm in the house on my own all day. You don't realize how much you rely on just knowing someone else is there to talk to even if you don't speak to another person in the office for hours at a time. To combat this I bought a mic for the computer and now have an open line to my brother, who also plays poker for a living, throughout most of the day. Often we will sit in silence but if we want we can rant about a bad beat we just took, talk pish, moan about the weather or, as is usually the case, try and catch each other out with elaborate film quotes from obscure parts of random films (guys should understand the male desire to do this!). This limited interaction is enough to keep me going through the day and I make a point of trying to do stuff at the weekend. It's weird though, if I'm up town I often feel a little intimidated by crowds of people as I'm just not used to being around other people all that often.

A further draw back is my driving. I've gone from driving around 25-30k a year to probably 3-5k a year and it really shows. When I'm in the car now I don't feel as alert and in control as I previously was and I'm not as good at 'reading' ahead to the dangers around me, etc. If I try to drive enthusiastically I have little confidence and can be quite ham fisted. This is a bitter blow as I love driving quickly and used to always try to improve my skills even if that meant taking an empty roundabout quickly on my way to work. If the money flow improves I think I'll get a track car and start doing track days.

As for moving house that is something I have been reading up about of late. It appears that a self-cert mortgage would probably the best/only route for me and I will get hit for a slightly higher rate of interest. However, provided I keep the LTV rate down (pref 80% or less) it shouldn't be too bad. When I made the decision to go pro I ensured that our current home was fit to serve our needs (even if we have a kid) for several years to come.

As it stands right now and based on the actual results of the last 6 months it isn't quite worth giving up the security, etc. However, I am much happier as a person and I feel I'm gaining real momentum so hopefully the next 6 months will flip the balance.

LG John

Thanks chopper The lengthy typing is a legacy of being an LA planner where you have to explain every point in detail and cover your back in every way imaginable

Tiggs

Spot on - to make this work you need to be either staggeringly lucky (you may as well quit work and buy scratch cards if that your plan) or have a pretty lowly job in comparison.

I gave up work for 6 months a couple of years back to do this but found sat in front of a PC all day was grim. My "real" job involves under 10k miles a year, i'm my own boss, spend all day with clients drinking coffee and eating their biscuits and can do my own hours. My take home was close to £100k so the poker had to be GOOOOD....and it wasnt.
I used to play at a few large home games and it was full of people talking about the "dream" of playing for a living - but these were people who thought playing till 4am to win £500 was like a lotto win.

In short, i concluded poker for a living works only if your lucky or a bum - i fear saxo boy is neither and (no matter how crappy he may have felt his job was) he'll go back to it at some point.

Its like a giant pyramid scheme really - for every millionaire at the Belagio there are 5 million loosers on line, send ing their money up the ladder. Even the guys close to the top are not always what it seems. Without someone bankrolling them there are plenty of "pros" who would be broke (or ARE broke!) Best example i can think of is that its like quiting work to be a movie star on the basis that you have read some really good acting books and therefore have all the skills to be like Tom Cruise. Lifes just not that simple.

LG John

Would you care to stab a guess at the percentage of the British population that have a job like that, paying that much? After that, have a stab at the percentage population of the world with a job like that, paying that much!

I don't mean to be disrespectful Tiggs but you are in a very, very small minority group.

LG John

Luck will have nothing to do with it when you are getting through 800,000 hands every year. You simply cannot run 'good' or 'bad' after a few years of playing that many hands. For example, you will be dealt pocket 6s (or any other pair) 3619 times a year. If you are misplaying them it will show!

scoobynutta555

Well done Saxo for rollowing your dream! Another thing to consider is you'll save on commute costs from your previous job assuming you had any.

Tiggs

saxo,

As i recall (from figures in the late 90's) only 1% gross over £70k so i imagine i am in a pretty tiny bracket.
As i said, lower income, lower job satsifaction and it may work for you - as long as you dont expect to be loaded because there IS luck in poker no matter how many hands you play. If that werent the case the big game would be a bunch a Bill Gates lookalikes with the monster IQ's cleaning up.

The house thing is a good point though - i know you are happy in your current house but if you do want to move...well, whatever, there are lots of obvious problems of having no taxable income.

maddog321

Good luck with everything. I play every evening thats available but on SNGs and MTTs and do ok.

What sites do you play on? i have a good rakeback deal with William Hill.

LG John

I play on Full Tilt maddog although I do play on Cryptologic from time to time (that's the network WH is a part off).

Most of these geeks make $millions pa playing poker over 3 30" dell monitors in their boxershorts for 12h a day. Poker on TV is entertainment and is in no way a true reflection of a) how to actually play b) what the majority of 'pros' are like. A lot of the big named players you see on TV are regularly flat broke.

Martin2005

As SB said if you are better than most, over the long run luck evens out and you will win.

There's a whole lot more to it than just being a Bill Gates type, you need guts and a good read on the people you are up against.

maddog321

yes its Crypto network. Whats your ID, i'll keep an eye for you.
I'm going to start playing the ring games any day but its alot different from SNG thunders and medium ($50-$100) MTTs so I'll start low.
good ten days for me on Crypto - £3000 profit after running dead for about 3 weeks and only making profit from the rakeback!!

LG John

Cursefree, but I've not played crypto in months so don't expect to see me on there any time soon

Scoobychick

iTrader: (1)

An interesting and honest post Kenny I've highlighted the above because I know from experience that the isolation of working by yourself from home can become a problem. I moved up to Yorkshire in 2004 and have worked from home ever since, running my own small business. In the four years I've been here I've not made many new friends locally because I rarely get to meet anyone!

You can start to feel isolated and lonely because you're not getting any human contact. I think that face to face conversation is a vital part of making us feel good and when that isn't happening combined with the isolation and loneliness can easily lead to depression. This is turn can cause a lack of confidence which can then lead to a lack of self esteem. Once all this sets in you can get trapped in a vicious circle of not wanting to go out because it feels strange and a bit scary being surrounded by people.

I know this sounds daft but it can creep up on you without you really noticing. I've solved the problem by working a few hours a week in my local village pharmacy and it's proving to be a really enjoyable experience. I've met more local people in a week than I've met in four years of living of here and I'm back to having a laugh and a bit of banter at work in real life and not just on here!

Obviously all this ^^ can only happen if you're predisposed to being a bit mental in the first place

In all other aspects working from home rocks, the freedom it gives you is great but personally I find the discipline of getting up and going to the pharmacy a couple of days a week gives me a much needed shot of self discipline although when I'm working from home I still have a strict routine of getting up early and eating meals at set times

Keep us up to speed on your progress, I don't know any other professional poker players so it's really interesting to hear about the pros and cons.

Tiggs

That is about the most dangerous assumption you can have.

You may as well say most footballers make millions. The notion that maths alone will shine through is simply to blinkered. This is a game played by humans, the element of poker that is based upon the emotional/stupid reactions of those humans may be limited but, as Ian Malcolm said "life will find a way"

I should add - i have played the game! I'm not a "poker, duh...thats gambling" monkey. I played for 6 months solid and came close to replacing my lost income. I played online, in casinos, grotty home games, against housewifes and millionaire poker stars and even on TV.

GaryK

Makes for interesting reading Saxo and glad you ground out the bad patches to come good! Fair play for having the ***** to do it as well. I play alot of SNG and MTT just because my buy-in is fixed and I dont get spooked (like I do when playing cash games). Would I enjoy it if I played full time? probably not and I earn very well being self-employed so the trouble is I would have to be staking big money to get the equivalent per hour rate from poker. I was well chuffed the other week finished 8th from a starting field of 467, it was only a $10 buy-in and I bagged $110, I was elated, not because of the money because of my performance.

Gary

Brendan Hughes

Nice posts Kenny, and congrats for being a gambler. Too many people on this BBS and in the real world whine about their miserable lives without doing anything about it.

The working from home problems are not a new phenomenon, we were supposed to have paperless offices in the 80s and then no offices in the 90s as technology took over. It's clear that this never worked as, as humans, we simply need each other's company. I've been concerned for my marriage over the last couple of years as my wife is shut indoors (partly her own making, partly not) not seeing many people and can have some really bad days; as above, self-esteem etc. In the last couple of months she's a lot better.

Finally, nice to see your (as always honest) comments about driving. In the last few days I've found I might have the opportunity to buy a nice car as a second car, though it would take quite some financial commitment and at sacrifice to other goodies of course. And I've been genuinely wondering "Should I bother?" I don't drive anymore (commute daily by train, painless compared to sitting in a jam or suffering road rage from other commuters), and I'm almost scared when I do; I can chuck my gutless diesel jeep around, but if I got something quicker I really don't know if I could handle it. I'm still pondering.

Good luck
Brendan

LG John

Interesting post Scoobychick and 'doing' something for a few hours a week is definitely a consideration as it will get me out the house and seeing other people.

In what way is this an assumption? I do not assume I will ever achieve such a level of success; it would be nice but very few poker players ever make it that far up the ladder. So I'm not assuming there.

If my assumption is that people out there are achieving this then it is no assumption. I know two people in scotland personally that are and read the blogs of several others.

I don't want to debate poker maths/luck, etc. There is more to poker than raw numbers, I agree with that, so lets leave it at that.

I miss that feeling I must admit. I could go and win $2000 today and it hardly ever registers as I know it the long run I only won $200-250 today. There is little joy in poker for me now but there is plenty of challenge.

Tiggs

Because "many" is not accurate. or at least, not a sensible way of viewing it. I could say that many people have walked on the moon, certainly too many to fit on the back of a moped!

For TENS of MILLIONS of poker players it is the impression that there are spaces at the top which fuels them.

actually just read your first post proper and the jist i get is that you have made less money than your old job, but work less hours, but still get more knackered from those hours than you ever did at your old job or uni.

i hope it picks up...but in a way, i dont and hope you get out before it crashes and burns around you.

i agree to discuss the maths/luck is irrelevant but it is important to realise how many people are doing what you do and ask yourself why you should be the one the maths is panning out for when it doesnt for the others. Its quite an arrogant game really, stick 10 blokes in the same game all year and they all play their A game, who "wins"......you only win if you are better and luckier - and thats hell of a job requirement.

LG John

Right I'm with you.

I think the issue is that when I talk of poker players I actually mentally cut out several million people that 'play poker'. I'm talking about poker as being a group of guys that play every day for a living but of course this is actually a small minority group within the poker world. Many of the guys that properly* play for a living are enjoying rich and successful lives. As a function of the poker playing community though these guys hardly exist because there are many, many, many more gamblers and recreational players, and yes, there is a pyramid as you describe. At the moment I'm near the top of that pyramid. However, cut out the dreamers, gamblers and the plain curious then re-scale the pyramid and you'll find me at the very bottom. I make money from the dreamers, gamblers and curious in the level below me but must look to climb the ranks within the world of 'play and make money for a living' players. At the top of that group are your millionaires.

* By properly I don't mean people that 'take a shot' because they have nothing else going in their life. Oh, wait....that's me

Tiggs

What can i add to that?

Good luck