PeteBrant

Protection yes, and unfortuante and necessary measure.

But retaliation is not the answer.


Well quite - Unsure what the answer is there though

PeteBrant

Agreed - But in the case given - Was that necessary? Was it reasonable? Obviously not as the men involved got suspended.

THat's the problem Define "necessary" define "reasonable". Where there is any question of interpretation it's best to steer clear of it.

SJ_Skyline

Just an observation but I suspect it's not long before it's the plod that comes under attack for just being there and then you end up with no-go areas.

Congratulations government, you must be very proud of yourselves to have engineered such a culture

PeteBrant

It wasn't reasonable - The people involved got suspended.

Luminous

iTrader: (3)

agreed.

We are clueless as to the reality of the situation. You cannot assume that just because they were suspended that it actually means they were guilty. We also don't know what the outcome of the suspension was, or if they were back paid...

Daz34

It's been happening for years.
Most of our appliances have CCTV now.
On certain estates getting stoned is a regular occurrence.
Cars fires & derelict houses get booby trapped with LPG cylinders & hypodermic needles.
We've had equipment stolen off appliances and windscreens smashed too.
Alot of this is late at night with youths as young at ten.

A fair while back whilst driving away after dealing with a car fire on one of these estates I noticed a few youths hanging on the back of the truck giving me the finger.
Of course I only noticed them once I had taken a few speed humps at speed

Paul3446

Stop trolling Pete!

Stop feeding the troll everyone!

PeteBrant

It's called debate ********

lozgti

Don't know how anyone can defend these 'children'.Even on a scoobynet thread.

And the 'rose tinted spectacles 'argument is perhaps the worst one that keeps being put forward.

No discipline= scum

PeteBrant

But this is exactly what I mean - It's open to interpretation and opinion
Yup, that's a fair comment - I basically assumed that since the suspension was mentioned in a negative light, it meant that the men were effectively disciplined for thier action.

PeteBrant

No one is defending them. All I am saying is that knocking someone from a first floor balcony with a fire hose is not the best way to deal with someone throwing stones at you. Especially when you are in a position of public service.

Of course the person should not be doing it in the first place, that's a given.

PeteBrant

Let me give an analogy.


Imagine you have a dog.
This dog is usually placid. One day you find your dog on the doorstep with a broken pelvis.
Turns out the dog bit the postman and he decided to hit it with a brick to get it off.

Was it proportionate? Was it reasonable? Who decides?

Now apply that same thign to the firemen and the kid throwing stones - How would the parent of said kid feel? How would you feel?

SJ_Skyline

They should have employed the line "Thought the fire was spreading to the first floor, guv"

Paul3446

Quote:
"It's called debate ********"

No, it's definitely called trolling.

PeteBrant

How do you know the stone throwing person acts liek that every single day? How do you know if that was the first time the person had done aything like that? How do you know whether the person has mental issues?

The answer is you don't - You might be able to make a guess, and assume, but the fact is you can't say with any certainty. And this is why you can't allow people to take the law into thier own hands. You are opening yourself up to all sorts of problems.

This is why you will never see the fire service given powers to retaliate.

PeteBrant

I think you'll find you're the troll - Unless I missed your previous contribution to the debate before you explicitly cam ein here to call me a troll?

lozgti

Just being realistic about this.I understand we are talking about organised yobbery.

1. Get drunk or take drugs or rely on inbred vile nature in absence of drink or drugs
2.Light fire or make prank call

3.Collect sones/bricks/wood/whatever

4.Await truck and crew and unleash hell

I freely admit we used to snowball the gritter lorry that went through the village but that was the extent of our vileness as kids

We aren't talking about the odd mental patient or a rogue kid having an 'odd' day ie stone the firemen

PeteBrant

Yup I agree - Ont the face of it it's horrible behaviour - Still doesn't mean that you can retaliate in any way you see fit. I am just pointing out the legal pitfalls of just retailiating.

Paul3446

Quote:
"I think you'll find you're the troll - Unless I missed your previous contribution to the debate before you explicitly cam ein here to call me a troll? "


I didn't feel the need to contribute until you did your usual of taking the opposite view to every normal member of society!

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

But isn't that the point, Pete? There ARE legal pitfalls for retaliation, but apparently none for the original crime?

Labour are fast approaching a situation where people ARE going to start taking the law into their own hands, because the police/cps/courts WON'T or CAN'T.

And is that completely wrong? Or would you prefer us to just allow these people to do as they please, wrecking lives as they do?

Alcazar

Will

That kid could of been hurting the fireman while throwing stones at him,

stopping him doing his job of putting a fire out. I would of done the same to that

little sh*t.

SirFozzalot

So if the firefighters picked up the same stones and bricks etc. that had been thrown at them and threw them back at the chav scum, would that be seen as suitable and fair retaliation?

The Zohan

Peter, this is where you and disagree and where i think one of societies problems lie

IMHO - The general, law abiding public would not mind a few thugs, robbers, troblemakers getting a good hiding from the police, or a couple of chavscum being blown over by firmen because they are throwing petrol bombs at them, scum should loose their human rights when they transgress, a choice they make. The emergency services have little choice but to attrned a 'shout' not the emergency services who are being brutalised by scumbags.

the day will come when someone looses their life due to the fire brigade waiting for police to attend with them or such like so yet again the general public will suffer and for no other reason than the scumbags are opn top. How long before a firefighter is killed by evil thugs for just doing thier job and trying to save lives abd helkp people?!?

We police by consent and what i see and hear is not much being done for the general public people fed up, cars and motorists are the new priority. target driven policing being put on the police by fcukwit politicians and implimented by self servicg top cops who are in it for themsleves. The Public will keep loosing their faith in the system and the police - and that is a problem!

I am sick of the scum being on top and about time things changed, you mention vigilates, sadly (and i do mean sadly as i for one would like to see scumbgas put in their place and feel ths gov't, judges and cps are letting us all down) that is the way things are going due to the current climate.

I do think a measured response is a good idea but i think the measure needs rethinking bigtime!

PeteBrant

I can see why people have that impression - but the solution to that is not to take the law into your own hands.


Perhaps that's the answer!


You have to have a legal process though don't you, Paul?

I mean this is precisely the reason Police aren't Judge Jury and executioner the majority of the time - And you can refuse thier judgement when it is the case (for example fixed penalties) and take the matter to court if you feel you are justified.

If you have police allowed to hand out hidings etc, then at some point, an innocent person is going to get caught up in it, and that cannot be right. The state has to be whiter than white, it cannot descend into tit for tat.


If people behave like absolute animals, then to retailiate in the same way does not make things better.


Perhaps the legal system needs looking at to offer stricter punishment, but that still has to go through the legal process to convict someone.




At the end of the day, I think people want to see some sort of meaningful and preventative measure taken out against those that would do this sort of thing.
But these measures have to be considered and work within a legal framework, you can't just say "give em a good hiding".

CrisPDuk

My god I started a bit of something there, didn't I Pete

Unfortunately I don't know the outcome of that particular incident because I went to work for a different company in another area and lost contact with the guy before it all got resolved.

The Zohan

lets just have a quick scan of the news from yesterday shall we.
BBC NEWS | England | Manchester | Man seriously hurt in gang attack

Peter, not too sure if you are playing devils advocate or believe you own bollox, the reality is that things are getting out of control and worse.

In my case;
I would be ashamed of the kid and angry he/she had decided to throw stones at someone trying to do their job, and save lives Peter!

I invest time and effort in my kids because that is the right thing to do and gives me a good feeling as well.

Like any responsible parent i would.



As for their injuries - well angry yes but maybe a hard lesson learned and i do doubt they would ever do it again assuming that i let them out whislt they where still teens!

OK so diffence being between me and a chavscum parent - chavscum parent would kick up a hell of a fuss claim their little darling was innocent and a victim, claim for damages and tell the kid to make sure he/she did not get caught next time, then pack them off with a bottle of vodka as i was too busy watching the horse racing.

These kids do not seem to know any boundraries or right from wrong but tbh we all know right from wrong and what they are doing is just plain and simply wrong. Yet, they choose to do it anyway.

It nhas all ben sadi beofre about responsibilities and it being the parents and yes that is true no doubt.

I do get bored of hearing that kids get into trouble because of no facilities, that is not a good excuse.

In the evenings we used to play footie and cricket, skateboard, ride our bikes and keep oursleves entrertianed without the need ot hurts others going about their buisness. We had the odd fight but not because we where drunk or drugged up and usually with each other.



Not all of us had both parents at home either!


People, including kids need to start taking some responsibility for thier actions/inactions and the results of them.

You bandy about words like excecutioner, lets put some perspective shall we, if a cop gives a mouthy little ****** a clip around the ear then good, no one got killed but someone got to understand that their choice to abuse someone got them punished, chances are they are not used to any form of punishment or and this is why they are like they are.

Peter, common sense needs to be used and some disgression as well. O would rahter the kids had a fear (for want of a better word) and respect for authority.
common sence and disgression play a part in that, whist i was never clipped by a cop i had a worry that it might happen if i broke the law so guess what - 99% of the time i did not.

we did silly things, we got caught and given a clip around the ear and taken back to our parents in a lot of cases who then where ashamed and punished us again.

It taught more than not getting caught it taught boundaries and respect for other people and what is thiers.

If you think 2008 is safer and there are less problems reateted to youth offending, knife and gun attacks, acts of violence and anti-social behaviour than in 1978 then you are sadly mistaken.

What has changed, a lot but they are still kids and there are still parents, police, etc.

However some kids seem to know all their right but none of their responsibilities. this sets a bad example to other kids and theses scum kids are the next generation of parents.

girl-in-a-scoob

I agree... Its getting out of hand. Nobody is prepared to stand up to these thugs and those that do usually end up in hospital. Is it coming to the point where we the adults go out in pairs for safety?

There will be a backlash, people will only put up with it for so long.

Answer me this .....

Gang of youths causing trouble in your area you phone the police over and over again who arrive on the scene after the youths have left, therefore not able to do anything about it.

Next day your own personal property gets damaged and you see it was by the youths from the previous incidents.

Do you phone the police or sort it yourself?

How many people can honestly say they would put their faith in the justice system ? HONESTLY