Life for Garry Newlove Killers
12 February 2008, 09:56 AM
#31
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Sometimes I wonder where you lot get your ideas from. You obviously have so much faith in the legal system to get it right.... and that is where the problem starts.
12 February 2008, 10:02 AM
#32
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BTW, I'm not a liberal, PC, "it's against their human rights" type of person, but you've got to be 100% certain that they did it before you start cutting their family allowance off or blowing their brains out....
12 February 2008, 10:34 AM
#33
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I used to be convinced the problem in the UK was lack of deterrents but now, I don't. It doesn't help that the scum can play the system, and do, but for me, I have to only look back to when I was a kid on a very rough council estate in Brixton. We had good values then, our friends and families weren't squeaky clean but they appreciated the value of everything and everybody looked out for everybody.
By contrast, my wifes little nephews who are lovely kids (but spoilt rotten) have been brought up in Tunbridge Wells, live in a £600k house (not a ****ty high rise council flat in Brixton!), have all the gizmos: PS3, XBox, laptops etc. We went for a meal with them when I was over at Christmas to one of these 'all you can eat' buffet Chinese restaurants. The oldest lad went and piled his plate to the very top with food, and I mean 'piled'. In fact, he took all of one particular dish (pancakes or something) meaning nobody else afterwards had any. Then guess what, after 10 minutes he'd had enough...only after slopping the food around his plate. When asked why he took food he couldn't possibly eat he said 'what does it matter, my Dad is paying for it?' WTF? These kids are soooo spoilt it's untrue and that's the start of the problem. They have no consideration for others and don't understand the value of the pound as it's always handed out on a plate.
The second problem is the removal of proper parenting. When I first arrived in Spain we moved to an Inland village high in the mountains in Andalucia. It's very poor but very beautiful. There were very few English there and we knew little Spanish to start with. There was a kid there a few doors along who would throw things at our window. Some of the adults ignored us in the street to start with. One day, I saw the kid lob something at the house and so I drenched the ****** with a bucker of water from an upstairs window. He stopped doing that then. Then, gradually he started to respect us, and as my Spanish improved we discovered middle ground...I loved cars and he loved motorbikes. Despite our obvious language and cultural differences, this kid and I got on really well, often sitting in the dry dusty streets outside our houses (old Arabic streets) in the summer talking about his love for bikes, or what he wants to do when he's older etc. He didn't even have a TV in his house. After we left the village last year, the kids stepdad (Spanish guy) came up to me at a petrol station and thanked me for giving the kid time. It was actually a pleasure, because the kid accepted us before any of the adults, but I really saw this kid change when we actually gave him the time of day and whilst I'm not saying it's the problem with the scum of the UK now, I think lack of involvement of parents at a very early age is oh so important...y parents were truly poor, and my Dad was no angel, but we knew right from wrong.
By contrast, my wifes little nephews who are lovely kids (but spoilt rotten) have been brought up in Tunbridge Wells, live in a £600k house (not a ****ty high rise council flat in Brixton!), have all the gizmos: PS3, XBox, laptops etc. We went for a meal with them when I was over at Christmas to one of these 'all you can eat' buffet Chinese restaurants. The oldest lad went and piled his plate to the very top with food, and I mean 'piled'. In fact, he took all of one particular dish (pancakes or something) meaning nobody else afterwards had any. Then guess what, after 10 minutes he'd had enough...only after slopping the food around his plate. When asked why he took food he couldn't possibly eat he said 'what does it matter, my Dad is paying for it?' WTF? These kids are soooo spoilt it's untrue and that's the start of the problem. They have no consideration for others and don't understand the value of the pound as it's always handed out on a plate.
The second problem is the removal of proper parenting. When I first arrived in Spain we moved to an Inland village high in the mountains in Andalucia. It's very poor but very beautiful. There were very few English there and we knew little Spanish to start with. There was a kid there a few doors along who would throw things at our window. Some of the adults ignored us in the street to start with. One day, I saw the kid lob something at the house and so I drenched the ****** with a bucker of water from an upstairs window. He stopped doing that then. Then, gradually he started to respect us, and as my Spanish improved we discovered middle ground...I loved cars and he loved motorbikes. Despite our obvious language and cultural differences, this kid and I got on really well, often sitting in the dry dusty streets outside our houses (old Arabic streets) in the summer talking about his love for bikes, or what he wants to do when he's older etc. He didn't even have a TV in his house. After we left the village last year, the kids stepdad (Spanish guy) came up to me at a petrol station and thanked me for giving the kid time. It was actually a pleasure, because the kid accepted us before any of the adults, but I really saw this kid change when we actually gave him the time of day and whilst I'm not saying it's the problem with the scum of the UK now, I think lack of involvement of parents at a very early age is oh so important...y parents were truly poor, and my Dad was no angel, but we knew right from wrong.
12 February 2008, 10:38 AM
#34
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I used to be convinced the problem in the UK was lack of deterrents but now, I don't. It doesn't help that the scum can play the system, and do, but for me, I have to only look back to when I was a kid on a very rough council estate in Brixton. We had good values then, our friends and families weren't squeaky clean but they appreciated the value of everything and everybody looked out for everybody.
By contrast, my wifes little nephews who are lovely kids (but spoilt rotten) have been brought up in Tunbridge Wells, live in a £600k house (not a ****ty high rise council flat in Brixton!), have all the gizmos: PS3, XBox, laptops etc. We went for a meal with them when I was over at Christmas to one of these 'all you can eat' buffet Chinese restaurants. The oldest lad went and piled his plate to the very top with food, and I mean 'piled'. In fact, he took all of one particular dish (pancakes or something) meaning nobody else afterwards had any. Then guess what, after 10 minutes he'd had enough...only after slopping the food around his plate. When asked why he took food he couldn't possibly eat he said 'what does it matter, my Dad is paying for it?' WTF? These kids are soooo spoilt it's untrue and that's the start of the problem. They have no consideration for others and don't understand the value of the pound as it's always handed out on a plate.
The second problem is the removal of proper parenting. When I first arrived in Spain we moved to an Inland village high in the mountains in Andalucia. It's very poor but very beautiful. There were very few English there and we knew little Spanish to start with. There was a kid there a few doors along who would throw things at our window. Some of the adults ignored us in the street to start with. One day, I saw the kid lob something at the house and so I drenched the ****** with a bucker of water from an upstairs window. He stopped doing that then. Then, gradually he started to respect us, and as my Spanish improved we discovered middle ground...I loved cars and he loved motorbikes. Despite our obvious language and cultural differences, this kid and I got on really well, often sitting in the dry dusty streets outside our houses (old Arabic streets) in the summer talking about his love for bikes, or what he wants to do when he's older etc. He didn't even have a TV in his house. After we left the village last year, the kids stepdad (Spanish guy) came up to me at a petrol station and thanked me for giving the kid time. It was actually a pleasure, because the kid accepted us before any of the adults, but I really saw this kid change when we actually gave him the time of day and whilst I'm not saying it's the problem with the scum of the UK now, I think lack of involvement of parents at a very early age is oh so important...y parents were truly poor, and my Dad was no angel, but we knew right from wrong.
By contrast, my wifes little nephews who are lovely kids (but spoilt rotten) have been brought up in Tunbridge Wells, live in a £600k house (not a ****ty high rise council flat in Brixton!), have all the gizmos: PS3, XBox, laptops etc. We went for a meal with them when I was over at Christmas to one of these 'all you can eat' buffet Chinese restaurants. The oldest lad went and piled his plate to the very top with food, and I mean 'piled'. In fact, he took all of one particular dish (pancakes or something) meaning nobody else afterwards had any. Then guess what, after 10 minutes he'd had enough...only after slopping the food around his plate. When asked why he took food he couldn't possibly eat he said 'what does it matter, my Dad is paying for it?' WTF? These kids are soooo spoilt it's untrue and that's the start of the problem. They have no consideration for others and don't understand the value of the pound as it's always handed out on a plate.
The second problem is the removal of proper parenting. When I first arrived in Spain we moved to an Inland village high in the mountains in Andalucia. It's very poor but very beautiful. There were very few English there and we knew little Spanish to start with. There was a kid there a few doors along who would throw things at our window. Some of the adults ignored us in the street to start with. One day, I saw the kid lob something at the house and so I drenched the ****** with a bucker of water from an upstairs window. He stopped doing that then. Then, gradually he started to respect us, and as my Spanish improved we discovered middle ground...I loved cars and he loved motorbikes. Despite our obvious language and cultural differences, this kid and I got on really well, often sitting in the dry dusty streets outside our houses (old Arabic streets) in the summer talking about his love for bikes, or what he wants to do when he's older etc. He didn't even have a TV in his house. After we left the village last year, the kids stepdad (Spanish guy) came up to me at a petrol station and thanked me for giving the kid time. It was actually a pleasure, because the kid accepted us before any of the adults, but I really saw this kid change when we actually gave him the time of day and whilst I'm not saying it's the problem with the scum of the UK now, I think lack of involvement of parents at a very early age is oh so important...y parents were truly poor, and my Dad was no angel, but we knew right from wrong.
12 February 2008, 10:45 AM
#35
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Ok, from another point of view. Lets say we forgot about the death penalty. A life sentence should mean life. Not out after say half the term for good behaviour etc. This means that the criminal is once again on our streets to commit yet more crime. Is this a better solution?
I am not trying to cause upset with my posts, so I apologise.
Ant
I am not trying to cause upset with my posts, so I apologise.
Ant
Where rehabilitation is impossible, invariably "life" means "life - (See Sutcliffe, Hindley and Neilsen for examples)
In this country we take the view that Prison not only punishes, it also rehabilitates peoples - Which is infinitely more preferable than locking up someone for 50 years due to a mistake they make when they are 18.
Otherwise you might as well have a conveyer belt to an electric chair.
12 February 2008, 12:03 PM
#36
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Clarebabes,
These young thugs are plenty old enough to know right from wrong and they are deliberatel choosing the second alternative. Yes of course it starts from a poor upbringing by dysfunctional parents, but that does not absolve them from blame and responsibility for what they are doing or are prepared to do.
It is a terrible failing that the courts are not allowed by the authorities to give them a punishment which is so unpleasant that they may even think that their troublesome behaviour is just not worth the candle so to speak.
They are not effectively disciplined by the police or the courts so they cannot see amy reason to behave themselves rather then think it makes them important by vandalising and injuring others.
If nothing significant is done soon, the whole business will be completely out of control and no one will be safe even in their own houses!
Les
These young thugs are plenty old enough to know right from wrong and they are deliberatel choosing the second alternative. Yes of course it starts from a poor upbringing by dysfunctional parents, but that does not absolve them from blame and responsibility for what they are doing or are prepared to do.
It is a terrible failing that the courts are not allowed by the authorities to give them a punishment which is so unpleasant that they may even think that their troublesome behaviour is just not worth the candle so to speak.
They are not effectively disciplined by the police or the courts so they cannot see amy reason to behave themselves rather then think it makes them important by vandalising and injuring others.
If nothing significant is done soon, the whole business will be completely out of control and no one will be safe even in their own houses!
Les
12 February 2008, 12:40 PM
#37
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Clarebabes,
These young thugs are plenty old enough to know right from wrong and they are deliberatel choosing the second alternative. Yes of course it starts from a poor upbringing by dysfunctional parents, but that does not absolve them from blame and responsibility for what they are doing or are prepared to do.
It is a terrible failing that the courts are not allowed by the authorities to give them a punishment which is so unpleasant that they may even think that their troublesome behaviour is just not worth the candle so to speak.
They are not effectively disciplined by the police or the courts so they cannot see amy reason to behave themselves rather then think it makes them important by vandalising and injuring others.
If nothing significant is done soon, the whole business will be completely out of control and no one will be safe even in their own houses!
Les
These young thugs are plenty old enough to know right from wrong and they are deliberatel choosing the second alternative. Yes of course it starts from a poor upbringing by dysfunctional parents, but that does not absolve them from blame and responsibility for what they are doing or are prepared to do.
It is a terrible failing that the courts are not allowed by the authorities to give them a punishment which is so unpleasant that they may even think that their troublesome behaviour is just not worth the candle so to speak.
They are not effectively disciplined by the police or the courts so they cannot see amy reason to behave themselves rather then think it makes them important by vandalising and injuring others.
If nothing significant is done soon, the whole business will be completely out of control and no one will be safe even in their own houses!
Les
We need to start by making it clear that this kind of behaviour isn't "just one of those things" it's completely unacceptable and there is no room for people in our society who think it's "ok" to be a violent ********.
I'd like to see much tougher sentences for antisocial behaviour, especially for repeat offenders . Personally, extreme as it may sound, I'd even support the enforced emetic medication of people who are repeatedly drunk and disorderly such that they can't touch alcohol for a specified period. Drinking isn't a right, it's a privalege and a responsibility, if you can't be trusted not to cause trouble when out for a pint, it should be taken away IMHO
I'd also like to see parents MADE to take responsibility for their kids; there is too much of this "Oh, they're out of control, they don't listen to me" crap. They're out of control because of years of systematic crap parenting/negligence on your part - fecking do something about it; you're a big part of the problem! Community punishments and curfew orders can work in this respect, but they must be significantly more draconian than they are at present ASBOs are almost seen as a badage of honor amoung chavs at the moment! If a group is indifferent to a punishment, it stands to reason that it's not a deterrant!
Ns04
12 February 2008, 12:43 PM
#38
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But I don't see much evidence of soft prison sentences acting as either a deterrant, or a real punishment, or leading to rehabilitation. On the latter point, if you spend a few years 24/7 in a University of Crime (AKA prison) what is the most likely outcome? A model citizen, or somebody with a First Class Honours Degree in all aspects of dangerous crime and seriously antisocial behaviour?
Richard.
12 February 2008, 12:52 PM
#39
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Les, I don't have the answers and I am definitely not sticking up for them. I look into their eyes in the photos and have nothing but disgust and hatred for them.
I agree that kicking someone to death is going to be wrong in anyone's book, including these lads, as well as throwing a concrete slab off a bridge near Wellingborough which killed a lorry driver. (Two lads have been named recently for this heinous crime.)
We all know it's wrong to do these things, but they still do it. Do you think that the punishment fits the crime? No? But if there were stricter sentences - i.e. longer or the threat of castration, do you think they would not do it? I'm not sure. As I mentioned yesterday, I had a lad sat in front of me saying he would do the time as it would be worth it to stop someone disrespecting him... Would 12 years instead of 12 months stop him? Maybe not, but OK, he would be someone else's problem while he was inside and not being let loose in society would help the murder rate.... Hmmm... I'm sure they wouldn't care. There is no respect of the system anyway.
Has anyone mentioned ADHD? The new buzz word for "naughty". I bet that those lads "had it". Some will argue that it is a proper medical condition and I would agree, however many parents are pushing this "label" as an excuse for the behaviour of an unruly child which they cannot control. (See above, olden days = naughty.)
No wonder the kids don't know right from wrong if their parents excuse all of their behaviour onto a medical condition which they may or may not have. "Oh, little Johnny's just killed that cat by stamping on its head because he's got ADHD, not because he's naughty and a potential knife-wielding yob!" Give the kids some wonder pills and they'll be OK. It's no wonder drugs may rear their head later in life - don't get me started on habitual cannabis use in young people today....
No one has the answer to this. It's gone too far. There is a major problem in our inner towns and cities. Something needs to be done, but what? Punishment doesn't work most of the time. We need to look way before a crime is committed to find the cause of it. Once that is identified, then we can work on the next generation...
I agree that kicking someone to death is going to be wrong in anyone's book, including these lads, as well as throwing a concrete slab off a bridge near Wellingborough which killed a lorry driver. (Two lads have been named recently for this heinous crime.)
We all know it's wrong to do these things, but they still do it. Do you think that the punishment fits the crime? No? But if there were stricter sentences - i.e. longer or the threat of castration, do you think they would not do it? I'm not sure. As I mentioned yesterday, I had a lad sat in front of me saying he would do the time as it would be worth it to stop someone disrespecting him... Would 12 years instead of 12 months stop him? Maybe not, but OK, he would be someone else's problem while he was inside and not being let loose in society would help the murder rate.... Hmmm... I'm sure they wouldn't care. There is no respect of the system anyway.
Has anyone mentioned ADHD? The new buzz word for "naughty". I bet that those lads "had it". Some will argue that it is a proper medical condition and I would agree, however many parents are pushing this "label" as an excuse for the behaviour of an unruly child which they cannot control. (See above, olden days = naughty.)
No wonder the kids don't know right from wrong if their parents excuse all of their behaviour onto a medical condition which they may or may not have. "Oh, little Johnny's just killed that cat by stamping on its head because he's got ADHD, not because he's naughty and a potential knife-wielding yob!" Give the kids some wonder pills and they'll be OK. It's no wonder drugs may rear their head later in life - don't get me started on habitual cannabis use in young people today....
No one has the answer to this. It's gone too far. There is a major problem in our inner towns and cities. Something needs to be done, but what? Punishment doesn't work most of the time. We need to look way before a crime is committed to find the cause of it. Once that is identified, then we can work on the next generation...
12 February 2008, 06:05 PM
#40
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If you take the view that prison is to punish and rehabilitate, then "Life" should not mean "life.
Where rehabilitation is impossible, invariably "life" means "life - (See Sutcliffe, Hindley and Neilsen for examples)
In this country we take the view that Prison not only punishes, it also rehabilitates peoples - Which is infinitely more preferable than locking up someone for 50 years due to a mistake they make when they are 18.
Otherwise you might as well have a conveyer belt to an electric chair.
Where rehabilitation is impossible, invariably "life" means "life - (See Sutcliffe, Hindley and Neilsen for examples)
In this country we take the view that Prison not only punishes, it also rehabilitates peoples - Which is infinitely more preferable than locking up someone for 50 years due to a mistake they make when they are 18.
Otherwise you might as well have a conveyer belt to an electric chair.
Is it bad parentage? During my many outings to the supermarkets etc, I see lots of children "playing" up, but the parents do nothing. Maybe the odd outburst of "Will you shut up". I rarely see a parent actually take their child to one side & speak to them. Thus diffusing the situation.
We as humans deserve to procreate, but some clearly aren`t suitable.
13 February 2008, 06:03 AM
#42
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Morning.... I forgot about this after I posted it, some very interesting points in the posts, and yes I do read them all.
Prison - Hmm ... well if we are going to lock these people up forever, who pays for it? We need to find some way of sourcing it, do we repossess any goods or property they own and sell it ? If we are never going to let them out then they dont need it do they ? But what about their families if they had one... we are then going to have to house them
Death penalty - difficult one this, mistakes get made. What happens if it is discovered in later years that a mistake was made, we wouldnt be able to bring them back. And does an eye for an eye really work ? Or does it make us as barbaric and like them at their level ?
Behaviour of kids now days - Yes I agree it is getting worse, Im not sure why. Is it the parents fault? When I was younger I was always wary of doing anything I could get caught for because my parents would of punished me.. but how... How can parents punish their children these days ? Confiscate the gameboy?
I feel that a lot of it is due to the parents, but for lots of different reasons not just because they are down the pub....
I have a 14 year old... 15 next month... now some of you are going to jump on me because of what Im going to say next... possibly...
I have been a single parent, when she was 9 years old I had an accident that left me in hospital for 5 weeks, enough time for my then husband to find someone else, when I came out of hospital within 3 months I was back to work in a new job full time leaving the house before her and arriving back after her, now some will say this was a recipe for disaster.... some people are single parents not by choice but by somebodys elses actions, and he wouldnt pay the mortgage, so what were the choices?
I have never allowed her to 'roam' the streets with her friends, callous? maybe...
Hasnt done her any harm ... She has private piano lessons... She goes to a drama group at the local theatre which I pay termly for... yes it cost money but I have forfeited other things to keep these things going... So it can be done, maybe Ive been lucky.. who knows
I now have a partner and a 2 year old so Im going through it all again.
The other reason I feel that kids these days have no respect is because they see the adults with no respect for those in authority .. the government, the police etc....
So whats the answer?? Havnt got it here Im afraid .... I do feel though unfortunately that as more and more people have less and less faith in the police system that matters will be taken into peoples own hands...
I have 'a friend' that was having trouble with someone recently and some friends of hers escorted this said person by driving him home to manchester from Yorkshire in his own car with another of their friends following and then made it clear he wasnt to cross the border..... Did it work ? Yep ... Why was he taken... threatening behaviour and drug use etc ... and he wasnt even her boyfriend just someone she knew.
So it does go on and everyone on here must have a story about the law being taken into somebodys own hands... Oh and before anybody says anything... Yes the police had been tried and said that because he had only caused damage to property and the drugs were not enough of a catch they were not really interested.....
Prison - Hmm ... well if we are going to lock these people up forever, who pays for it? We need to find some way of sourcing it, do we repossess any goods or property they own and sell it ? If we are never going to let them out then they dont need it do they ? But what about their families if they had one... we are then going to have to house them
Death penalty - difficult one this, mistakes get made. What happens if it is discovered in later years that a mistake was made, we wouldnt be able to bring them back. And does an eye for an eye really work ? Or does it make us as barbaric and like them at their level ?
Behaviour of kids now days - Yes I agree it is getting worse, Im not sure why. Is it the parents fault? When I was younger I was always wary of doing anything I could get caught for because my parents would of punished me.. but how... How can parents punish their children these days ? Confiscate the gameboy?
I feel that a lot of it is due to the parents, but for lots of different reasons not just because they are down the pub....
I have a 14 year old... 15 next month... now some of you are going to jump on me because of what Im going to say next... possibly...
I have been a single parent, when she was 9 years old I had an accident that left me in hospital for 5 weeks, enough time for my then husband to find someone else, when I came out of hospital within 3 months I was back to work in a new job full time leaving the house before her and arriving back after her, now some will say this was a recipe for disaster.... some people are single parents not by choice but by somebodys elses actions, and he wouldnt pay the mortgage, so what were the choices?
I have never allowed her to 'roam' the streets with her friends, callous? maybe...
Hasnt done her any harm ... She has private piano lessons... She goes to a drama group at the local theatre which I pay termly for... yes it cost money but I have forfeited other things to keep these things going... So it can be done, maybe Ive been lucky.. who knows
I now have a partner and a 2 year old so Im going through it all again.
The other reason I feel that kids these days have no respect is because they see the adults with no respect for those in authority .. the government, the police etc....
So whats the answer?? Havnt got it here Im afraid .... I do feel though unfortunately that as more and more people have less and less faith in the police system that matters will be taken into peoples own hands...
I have 'a friend' that was having trouble with someone recently and some friends of hers escorted this said person by driving him home to manchester from Yorkshire in his own car with another of their friends following and then made it clear he wasnt to cross the border..... Did it work ? Yep ... Why was he taken... threatening behaviour and drug use etc ... and he wasnt even her boyfriend just someone she knew.
So it does go on and everyone on here must have a story about the law being taken into somebodys own hands... Oh and before anybody says anything... Yes the police had been tried and said that because he had only caused damage to property and the drugs were not enough of a catch they were not really interested.....
Last edited by girl-in-a-scoob; 13 February 2008 at 06:12 AM.
13 February 2008, 08:50 AM
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Morning.... I forgot about this after I posted it, some very interesting points in the posts, and yes I do read them all.
Prison - Hmm ... well if we are going to lock these people up forever, who pays for it? We need to find some way of sourcing it, do we repossess any goods or property they own and sell it ? If we are never going to let them out then they dont need it do they ? But what about their families if they had one... we are then going to have to house them
Death penalty - difficult one this, mistakes get made. What happens if it is discovered in later years that a mistake was made, we wouldnt be able to bring them back. And does an eye for an eye really work ? Or does it make us as barbaric and like them at their level ?
Behaviour of kids now days - Yes I agree it is getting worse, Im not sure why. Is it the parents fault? When I was younger I was always wary of doing anything I could get caught for because my parents would of punished me.. but how... How can parents punish their children these days ? Confiscate the gameboy?
I feel that a lot of it is due to the parents, but for lots of different reasons not just because they are down the pub....
I have a 14 year old... 15 next month... now some of you are going to jump on me because of what Im going to say next... possibly...
I have been a single parent, when she was 9 years old I had an accident that left me in hospital for 5 weeks, enough time for my then husband to find someone else, when I came out of hospital within 3 months I was back to work in a new job full time leaving the house before her and arriving back after her, now some will say this was a recipe for disaster.... some people are single parents not by choice but by somebodys elses actions, and he wouldnt pay the mortgage, so what were the choices?
I have never allowed her to 'roam' the streets with her friends, callous? maybe...
Hasnt done her any harm ... She has private piano lessons... She goes to a drama group at the local theatre which I pay termly for... yes it cost money but I have forfeited other things to keep these things going... So it can be done, maybe Ive been lucky.. who knows
I now have a partner and a 2 year old so Im going through it all again.
The other reason I feel that kids these days have no respect is because they see the adults with no respect for those in authority .. the government, the police etc....
So whats the answer?? Havnt got it here Im afraid .... I do feel though unfortunately that as more and more people have less and less faith in the police system that matters will be taken into peoples own hands...
I have 'a friend' that was having trouble with someone recently and some friends of hers escorted this said person by driving him home to manchester from Yorkshire in his own car with another of their friends following and then made it clear he wasnt to cross the border..... Did it work ? Yep ... Why was he taken... threatening behaviour and drug use etc ... and he wasnt even her boyfriend just someone she knew.
So it does go on and everyone on here must have a story about the law being taken into somebodys own hands... Oh and before anybody says anything... Yes the police had been tried and said that because he had only caused damage to property and the drugs were not enough of a catch they were not really interested.....
Prison - Hmm ... well if we are going to lock these people up forever, who pays for it? We need to find some way of sourcing it, do we repossess any goods or property they own and sell it ? If we are never going to let them out then they dont need it do they ? But what about their families if they had one... we are then going to have to house them
Death penalty - difficult one this, mistakes get made. What happens if it is discovered in later years that a mistake was made, we wouldnt be able to bring them back. And does an eye for an eye really work ? Or does it make us as barbaric and like them at their level ?
Behaviour of kids now days - Yes I agree it is getting worse, Im not sure why. Is it the parents fault? When I was younger I was always wary of doing anything I could get caught for because my parents would of punished me.. but how... How can parents punish their children these days ? Confiscate the gameboy?
I feel that a lot of it is due to the parents, but for lots of different reasons not just because they are down the pub....
I have a 14 year old... 15 next month... now some of you are going to jump on me because of what Im going to say next... possibly...
I have been a single parent, when she was 9 years old I had an accident that left me in hospital for 5 weeks, enough time for my then husband to find someone else, when I came out of hospital within 3 months I was back to work in a new job full time leaving the house before her and arriving back after her, now some will say this was a recipe for disaster.... some people are single parents not by choice but by somebodys elses actions, and he wouldnt pay the mortgage, so what were the choices?
I have never allowed her to 'roam' the streets with her friends, callous? maybe...
Hasnt done her any harm ... She has private piano lessons... She goes to a drama group at the local theatre which I pay termly for... yes it cost money but I have forfeited other things to keep these things going... So it can be done, maybe Ive been lucky.. who knows
I now have a partner and a 2 year old so Im going through it all again.
The other reason I feel that kids these days have no respect is because they see the adults with no respect for those in authority .. the government, the police etc....
So whats the answer?? Havnt got it here Im afraid .... I do feel though unfortunately that as more and more people have less and less faith in the police system that matters will be taken into peoples own hands...
I have 'a friend' that was having trouble with someone recently and some friends of hers escorted this said person by driving him home to manchester from Yorkshire in his own car with another of their friends following and then made it clear he wasnt to cross the border..... Did it work ? Yep ... Why was he taken... threatening behaviour and drug use etc ... and he wasnt even her boyfriend just someone she knew.
So it does go on and everyone on here must have a story about the law being taken into somebodys own hands... Oh and before anybody says anything... Yes the police had been tried and said that because he had only caused damage to property and the drugs were not enough of a catch they were not really interested.....
One point that stands out is that you invest time, effort and emotion/love in you daughter, you mention drama group and piano lessons - excellent examples of how to do it right. My parents took me swimming 4/5 times a week and that meant mornings and evenings and weekends, a 9 mile drive each way before and after work for my dad.
I do doubt if 99% of the ferrals roaming ths streets have the same sort of investment from their parents, not money but time, effort and love to help and encourage their kids and get involved with them.
we do sem to live in a disposable society, i do think we are suffering from the benefit culture, too many single young mothers with little or no experience of bringing up kids. No help, no guidance, no decent male role models or men about to help in the process of growing up. That is not to say some single mums do not do a great job.
Even so kids do know right from wrong and need to take some responsibility for their actions and blame everything and everyone except themselves.
we do need strict punishments and some zero tollerance to be shown that bad behaviour will no longer be accepted and put up with.
Boot camps, maybe, borstal and a strict regiem reintroduced - yes, possibly, some discipline along with respect and self worth could/would go a long way
Last edited by The Zohan; 13 February 2008 at 08:53 AM.
13 February 2008, 08:59 AM
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But I don't see much evidence of soft prison sentences acting as either a deterrant, or a real punishment, or leading to rehabilitation. On the latter point, if you spend a few years 24/7 in a University of Crime (AKA prison) what is the most likely outcome? A model citizen, or somebody with a First Class Honours Degree in all aspects of dangerous crime and seriously antisocial behaviour?
.
.
Well harsh sentences and prisons definitely aren't a deterrent - See offending rates in the US for evidence, they are even worse than ours.
I suspect the answer lies in some joined up thinking between parents/schools/police/government/social services.
No one is born "bad".
13 February 2008, 09:09 AM
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It was also trialed and I believe is still in use over here in one constabulary IIRC brought in by the "supercop" from the USA....No, not Robocop, supercop! 
The mame escapes me, sorry my brain hasn't woke up yet.Personally I support it; ask most police and they will tell you that, more often than not, the folks who cause trouble are known to them, but they have to wait till they do something for fear of being accussed of harassment etc... Nowt wrong with letting em know they're being kept on a tight leash!
Also it sends out the right messge in the community!
13 February 2008, 09:18 AM
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Makes an interesting read BTW!
One point that stands out is that you invest time, effort and emotion/love in you daughter, you mention drama group and piano lessons - excellent examples of how to do it right. My parents took me swimming 4/5 times a week and that meant mornings and evenings and weekends, a 9 mile drive each way before and after work for my dad.
I do doubt if 99% of the ferrals roaming ths streets have the same sort of investment from their parents, not money but time, effort and love to help and encourage their kids and get involved with them.
we do sem to live in a disposable society, i do think we are suffering from the benefit culture, too many single young mothers with little or no experience of bringing up kids. No help, no guidance, no decent male role models or men about to help in the process of growing up. That is not to say some single mums do not do a great job.
Even so kids do know right from wrong and need to take some responsibility for their actions and blame everything and everyone except themselves.
we do need strict punishments and some zero tollerance to be shown that bad behaviour will no longer be accepted and put up with.
Boot camps, maybe, borstal and a strict regiem reintroduced - yes, possibly, some discipline along with respect and self worth could/would go a long way
One point that stands out is that you invest time, effort and emotion/love in you daughter, you mention drama group and piano lessons - excellent examples of how to do it right. My parents took me swimming 4/5 times a week and that meant mornings and evenings and weekends, a 9 mile drive each way before and after work for my dad.
I do doubt if 99% of the ferrals roaming ths streets have the same sort of investment from their parents, not money but time, effort and love to help and encourage their kids and get involved with them.
we do sem to live in a disposable society, i do think we are suffering from the benefit culture, too many single young mothers with little or no experience of bringing up kids. No help, no guidance, no decent male role models or men about to help in the process of growing up. That is not to say some single mums do not do a great job.
Even so kids do know right from wrong and need to take some responsibility for their actions and blame everything and everyone except themselves.
we do need strict punishments and some zero tollerance to be shown that bad behaviour will no longer be accepted and put up with.
Boot camps, maybe, borstal and a strict regiem reintroduced - yes, possibly, some discipline along with respect and self worth could/would go a long way
Its not easy bringing up kids... And i do feel that some people do it for the wrong reasons.. they get given so much when young, unemployed and pregnant, but what is the alternative? Do we have youngsters being brought up in poverty? Do we make it a pay in- take out benefit service? ie all those that have never paid in arnt allowed to claim.. isnt the Incapacity along these lines
When I worked I was a bank manager ... earning £15k a year leaving the house at 7am and espected to work until 7-8pm at night for no extra money....
I have a 2 year old now, and she knows the difference between right and wrong, If she is doing something or has something she shouldnt then when I walk in the room she very quickly stops doing it or puts the thing down that she shouldnt have ....
13 February 2008, 09:21 AM
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I 'used' to think this... well not bad, but maybe mischeivious ...
My second daughter is totally different tempremant to my first, always into things she shouldnt be and generally pushing her luck .... Have I brought them up differently.. No ... So whats the answer there...
Im no god Im not whiter than white Ive had my fair share of scrapes with the 'wrong kind' but I have never been in bother with the police and I have always put food on the table for my kids without relying on the benefit system...
13 February 2008, 09:29 AM
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I 'used' to think this... well not bad, but maybe mischeivious ...
My second daughter is totally different tempremant to my first, always into things she shouldnt be and generally pushing her luck .... Have I brought them up differently.. No ... So whats the answer there...
Im no god Im not whiter than white Ive had my fair share of scrapes with the 'wrong kind' but I have never been in bother with the police and I have always put food on the table for my kids without relying on the benefit system...
My second daughter is totally different tempremant to my first, always into things she shouldnt be and generally pushing her luck .... Have I brought them up differently.. No ... So whats the answer there...
Im no god Im not whiter than white Ive had my fair share of scrapes with the 'wrong kind' but I have never been in bother with the police and I have always put food on the table for my kids without relying on the benefit system...
WE have exactly, EXACTLY the same issue, Ourr eldest is pretty good by and large, the youngest is mischevious to say the least, brought up the same way, but completely different personalities.
as for kids not being born bad, not too sure that has been proved beyond doubt. Not born with predudices and hatered - yes that is learned behaiour, but bad, no, would not put money on it!
13 February 2008, 09:31 AM
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they should bring back national sevrice for kids who have not got anything lined up (work,college,uni etc) or any 1 who causing trouble or drinking in the & breaking the law in the 1st year of leaving sckool....it should teach them disapline & respect for themselfs and others & they could get a trade aswell so they could put some thing back into the community...
or some kind of public humiliation like putting them in stocks in the town center
or some kind of public humiliation like putting them in stocks in the town center
13 February 2008, 09:43 AM
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These lads will probably have a nice time in jail playing on an Xbox or a playstation because if we don't let them have these then we are breaking the law because we are taking away their human rights......despite they took someone else's rights to live away.... When they do leave prison they will probably be given new identities....
Life should mean life and the goverment should address this problem
Life should mean life and the goverment should address this problem
13 February 2008, 11:16 AM
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But on your quote above, a) the joined up thinking thing is never going to happen and b) I'm really not sure about that any more. If kids are not born bad, then by the age of two they've certainly got all the necessary characteristics firmly in place.
We should always strive for ideals, but while we scratch our heads over that one, what can be done, now, in practical terms? The system we have in place is inprisonment, so more of that please. And when you're released, close and firm monitoring of behaviour, with swift and firm application of penalties for transgression, ie more prison.
If we can't sort these people out now, which is obviously the case, then remove them from society. I don't see an alternative
Richard.
13 February 2008, 11:27 AM
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I agree with what you say Clarebabes, and the main reasons for the problems from so many of the young people have been pretty well covered. It is initially down to the parents of course who have abrogated their responsibilities to bring up their children with a respect for discipline and to think of others than just themselves and their evil actions.
My point was that when they get to such an advanced stage of bad behaviour, that they should expect some really unpleasant punishment when they are caught at it. The sort of thing that they really would not want to go through again. Not as good as sorting the basic reasons but it at least go some way to alleviating the troubles. Just giving them the time honoured slap on the wrist or a telling off will achieve nothing and they will just laugh behind their hands and do it all over again.
The other point which was made above was to hold the parents responsible for damage and mayhem caused by their children. It might even make the parents do a bit more to bring them up properly in the future.
Les
My point was that when they get to such an advanced stage of bad behaviour, that they should expect some really unpleasant punishment when they are caught at it. The sort of thing that they really would not want to go through again. Not as good as sorting the basic reasons but it at least go some way to alleviating the troubles. Just giving them the time honoured slap on the wrist or a telling off will achieve nothing and they will just laugh behind their hands and do it all over again.
The other point which was made above was to hold the parents responsible for damage and mayhem caused by their children. It might even make the parents do a bit more to bring them up properly in the future.
Les
13 February 2008, 11:35 AM
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As far as I see it, prevention is better than cure. If you can make these people not want to go and smash someones face in for ****s and giggles, then you arre onto a winner.
I mean, I don't have a burning desire to go and smash someones face in - I don't lack this urge because I fear going to prison, or spending the rest of my life in irons. I don't have it because it simply is not in my make up. Much like the vast majority of the general public.
However, there is a rising rate of youth on youth violence and we need ot look at why that is and how we combat it - It is not because of soft sentences, and I suspect it is not soley down to bad parenting - There must be some trigger somewhere to make peopel want to behave in this way, and we should be spending our efforts finding out what that is to remove the root cause.
I mean, I don't have a burning desire to go and smash someones face in - I don't lack this urge because I fear going to prison, or spending the rest of my life in irons. I don't have it because it simply is not in my make up. Much like the vast majority of the general public.
However, there is a rising rate of youth on youth violence and we need ot look at why that is and how we combat it - It is not because of soft sentences, and I suspect it is not soley down to bad parenting - There must be some trigger somewhere to make peopel want to behave in this way, and we should be spending our efforts finding out what that is to remove the root cause.
14 February 2008, 01:58 PM
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As far as I see it, prevention is better than cure. If you can make these people not want to go and smash someones face in for ****s and giggles, then you arre onto a winner.
I mean, I don't have a burning desire to go and smash someones face in - I don't lack this urge because I fear going to prison, or spending the rest of my life in irons. I don't have it because it simply is not in my make up. Much like the vast majority of the general public.
However, there is a rising rate of youth on youth violence and we need ot look at why that is and how we combat it - It is not because of soft sentences, and I suspect it is not soley down to bad parenting - There must be some trigger somewhere to make peopel want to behave in this way, and we should be spending our efforts finding out what that is to remove the root cause.
I mean, I don't have a burning desire to go and smash someones face in - I don't lack this urge because I fear going to prison, or spending the rest of my life in irons. I don't have it because it simply is not in my make up. Much like the vast majority of the general public.
However, there is a rising rate of youth on youth violence and we need ot look at why that is and how we combat it - It is not because of soft sentences, and I suspect it is not soley down to bad parenting - There must be some trigger somewhere to make peopel want to behave in this way, and we should be spending our efforts finding out what that is to remove the root cause.
I still remember when parents were concerned as a matter of course about how their children behaved and there was a sense of shame about them being caught causing trouble or damage either for the parents or for the child. That does not seem to exist any more. The shame was as bad as the punishment which was usually severe anyway.
Les
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