Are we going into the Euro by the back door?
28 February 2008, 02:10 PM
#31
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I don't agree that we'd lose sovereignty if we join, any more than we now have.
That just seems to be Europhobe scare tactics. So what if the queen's not on the paper money? Her likeness will be on coins minted here.
And as for not being able to make decisions, that's not true either. You hit the nail on the head: the other EC countries look at any new laws and ask, "Does that law benifit this country? Does that law benifit our citzens?" if the answer to neither is yes, then they ignore it.
OUR mob enforce EVERY little law to the hilt, unless it doesn't benifit THEM, the government, like the Idris Francis thing.
You put your finger on the problem here, Les:
The liars and those we need to beware of aren't Europe, they are are own devious lying Labour loonies!
Alcazar
That just seems to be Europhobe scare tactics. So what if the queen's not on the paper money? Her likeness will be on coins minted here.
And as for not being able to make decisions, that's not true either. You hit the nail on the head: the other EC countries look at any new laws and ask, "Does that law benifit this country? Does that law benifit our citzens?" if the answer to neither is yes, then they ignore it.
OUR mob enforce EVERY little law to the hilt, unless it doesn't benifit THEM, the government, like the Idris Francis thing.
You put your finger on the problem here, Les:
The liars and those we need to beware of aren't Europe, they are are own devious lying Labour loonies!
Alcazar
If however we do become fully federated as Flash intends, how can we personally have any kind of a democratic influence on the way that the Eu will control our lives.
When I said "appointed" in my previous post, I meant that they select their own commissioners without any reference to the people by way of a vote.
Les
28 February 2008, 03:47 PM
#32
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I thought you might mean that. Anyhow, the general point is that we already have a swathe of unelected people controling our lives without any democratic influence in the UK, and as mentioned many of our new laws come from Europe. I'm not pro or against further European integration, it's a very complex subject. But, maybe more integration may prevent our own gov't taking advantage of us.
28 February 2008, 04:26 PM
#33
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Some good points there Alcazar, and I agree with your description of our own authorities.
If however we do become fully federated as Flash intends, how can we personally have any kind of a democratic influence on the way that the Eu will control our lives.
When I said "appointed" in my previous post, I meant that they select their own commissioners without any reference to the people by way of a vote.
Les
If however we do become fully federated as Flash intends, how can we personally have any kind of a democratic influence on the way that the Eu will control our lives.
When I said "appointed" in my previous post, I meant that they select their own commissioners without any reference to the people by way of a vote.
Les
I laugh at the way people continually blame this government for everything, sure they're not perfect, but they are a damned sight better than most continental governments. If you want to have a pop at governments then let's look at all government over the past 30 years who have signed the UK up to more and more EU legislation/rules/treaty's, without once consulting the electorate.
It's not a Labour thing, it's a Whitehall thing!
A bit more balance would be nice, otherwise your contributions just come across a the usual attack from the 'right', so often seen on this forum.
29 February 2008, 03:20 PM
#36
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Well I disagree with you both, Gordon Brown is both a self confessed 'atlantasist', and a Euro-Sceptic, so the cap you are trying to put on him doesn't fit.
I laugh at the way people continually blame this government for everything, sure they're not perfect, but they are a damned sight better than most continental governments. If you want to have a pop at governments then let's look at all government over the past 30 years who have signed the UK up to more and more EU legislation/rules/treaty's, without once consulting the electorate.
It's not a Labour thing, it's a Whitehall thing!
A bit more balance would be nice, otherwise your contributions just come across a the usual attack from the 'right', so often seen on this forum.
I laugh at the way people continually blame this government for everything, sure they're not perfect, but they are a damned sight better than most continental governments. If you want to have a pop at governments then let's look at all government over the past 30 years who have signed the UK up to more and more EU legislation/rules/treaty's, without once consulting the electorate.
It's not a Labour thing, it's a Whitehall thing!
A bit more balance would be nice, otherwise your contributions just come across a the usual attack from the 'right', so often seen on this forum.
Les
29 February 2008, 06:15 PM
#37
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When the Euro first came into being, we refused to enter, and we got €1.65 for our £1.
Now we are getting €1.28. The £ holds it's value against ALL other curencies, even gains against some, but is surely and steadily falling against the €.
So far, then, the cost of € has risen from £0.61 to £0.78, thus 17p MORE to buy each Euro, or a loss to us of 28%.
If this continues, within another 5 years, the £ will be on parity with the €, and there'll be NO real reason not to go in.
Is this what the government are hoping?
And why, when we are a net importer, is it SO important to get the £ as low as possible to make EXPORTS cheap to sell? Shouldn't we be keeping the £ HIGH so as to make imports cheap?
Alcazar
Now we are getting €1.28. The £ holds it's value against ALL other curencies, even gains against some, but is surely and steadily falling against the €.
So far, then, the cost of € has risen from £0.61 to £0.78, thus 17p MORE to buy each Euro, or a loss to us of 28%.
If this continues, within another 5 years, the £ will be on parity with the €, and there'll be NO real reason not to go in.
Is this what the government are hoping?
And why, when we are a net importer, is it SO important to get the £ as low as possible to make EXPORTS cheap to sell? Shouldn't we be keeping the £ HIGH so as to make imports cheap?
Alcazar
Firstly there is no relationship between the exchange rate and a decision whether or not to join the Euro. Was there 1 French Franc : 1 Deutchmark : 1 Italian Lira (!!) : 1 Swedish Krona etc when the Euro was established? Was there hell.
Secondly there are a great number of jobs in this country which depend on exports. A weaker £ helps our exports to Europe be more competitive, so many companies are happier to have a weaker £. That is good for the balance of payments and it's good for manufacturing jobs. As an engineer at a company which has to compete in the big wide world, the £:$ exchange is killing us in the US , but at least we gain in Europe. Swings and roundabout.
What concerns me is the implication that you think the UK will do just fine as a service economy and that it's OK for the manufacturing base to be run down. Wealth creation predominantly comes raw material extraction (iron ore, coal, oil) and manufacturing which turns that raw material into goods that have increased value. Service companies simply share around wealth created by someone else, they don't generate wealth. The City of London doesn't generate wealth, it just skims the top off the vast amount of money which pass through there. Manufacturing is vital to the long term health of the UK economy, but the current govt's love affair with the City means they have a blind spot to industry. I can't think of a so-called first world economy which puts such little value on manufacturing and it will come back to haunt us big time.
Last edited by Brit_in_Japan; 29 February 2008 at 06:19 PM.
29 February 2008, 08:12 PM
#38
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All I'll say is that the problem with such a vote is that it would inevitably be hijacked by the Murdoch press and others and turned into a referendum on our membership of the EU not the constitution. I suspect faced with the prospect of losing that vote, and it's consequences is what make this such an unattractive prospect for them.
I jsut wish we were allowed by the media and vested interests to have an adult, grown-up national debate on this (and other) issues.
29 February 2008, 08:27 PM
#39
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Dave
29 February 2008, 09:39 PM
#40
I'd say you are confused.
Firstly there is no relationship between the exchange rate and a decision whether or not to join the Euro. Was there 1 French Franc : 1 Deutchmark : 1 Italian Lira (!!) : 1 Swedish Krona etc when the Euro was established? Was there hell.
Firstly there is no relationship between the exchange rate and a decision whether or not to join the Euro. Was there 1 French Franc : 1 Deutchmark : 1 Italian Lira (!!) : 1 Swedish Krona etc when the Euro was established? Was there hell.
Doesn't matter what the exchange rate is, of course, but if it DOES happen to slip to £1=€1, then the government could say, "hey look, a £ is the same as a €, so lets just go in anyway", and loads of folk would then accept it. They'd see it as just calling the £ a €
My point is this: WHY is the £ slipping ONLY against the €, when we are told that the € is not a strong currency, not safe, etc etc?
Is it being done artificially?
Alcazar
01 March 2008, 01:06 PM
#44
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I think you'll find it's the government of the day that prevents the grown-up discussion! Witness Flash and his turnabout on the referendum (sorry, tidying up exercise) and the lack of debate in the house. The whole thing is a massive social engineering exercise by our political *masters* to keep the proles (us!) in check. And NONE of the so-called mainstream parties will allow any sort of real debate unless the truth is out!
Dave
Dave
That is why I do not trust any of these politicians who keep friittering our sovereignty away until they achieve their goals and we have lost what little democracy that we have left.
Les
02 March 2008, 04:50 PM
#47
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