scooby-tc

iTrader: (2)

me

alanbell

iTrader: (6)

Just got myself a 535 M sport >> diesal, was 274/540 ish now with a Emap (do a web search) its 330/660 its ok

jjones

does the fact that subaru are introducing diesel engines across their range not tell you something sherlock?

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

I think you'll find there are a lot of people who have sold their Imprezas for diesels. I was one of them - I sold an '05 JDM STI for my 330D, and only picked up my 'toy' STI 2 after 18 months. I still only drive the scooby once or maybe twice a week, it's all but finished depreciating and it gets serviced by a local specialist, so hardly expensive.

The rest of the time, it's tractor power all the way. My route to work is 12 miles of badly surfaced dual carriageway, so a scooby really isn't fun, it's just pointlessly uncomfortable and thirsty. Much better to enjoy comfort and refinement when I just want to get from A to B, and keep the (severely compromised) toy car for when the mood really takes me.

And like poker, the MPG game gets a whole lot more interesting when you play for money

alanbell

iTrader: (6)

agree

Blueblaster

It can get quite obsessive, can't it

carsonr6

Don't think you quite getting me, I never said anything about diesels being better or anything against both, just merely stating the fact that I can get 55mpg.
If you had paid attention earlier in the thread, I stated I was selling it to get a scoob.

Blueblaster

You and I seem to exchanging messages on a number of threads. I think you think I am some boring environmentalist who wants to remove every last drop of fun from people's lives. It couldn't be further from the truth. The Mrs and I do about 35,000 miles a year and save thousands and thousands of pounds by running diesels. The money saved pays for some terrific holidays that for us are far more memorable and life-enriching than the odd blast down that seldom empty country lane. The reason I go against the flow and encourage people to dump their petrol performance cars is that the peer group pressure on this site is enormous and many people may think they have no choice. How many petrol heads on this site live from one pay cheque to the next because of the car they drive. If I'm oboring today then maybe a few people will have a more financially secure future. Worth a thought, n'est pas?

nooobyscoooby

I just don't like the driving dynamics of a diesel - and I've driven a lot of them. You can't beat the sound and feel of a boxer engine, straight six or V8 petrol. As for running costs, you pays your money and takes your choice! I'd rather spend another £20-30 a week on a petrol engined car I enjoy driving than save it by sitting in an oiler.

Blueblaster

Fair point and totally understandable. Out of interest, if that £20-30 became £100 would you still feel the same. I do 15,000 miles a year and I save £60 a week. It adds up.

c_maguire

The point I am making is that reading between the lines the majority of those pro-diesel arguments always come back to running costs i.e. mostly mpg.
The comments are always along the lines of "It doesn't.....It might not, but.......Compared to, it isn't.." and they virtually all without fail end with ".....but it does 3 million miles on a tank."
Let's put this into context. By some freak of nature you are lucky enough to have a fairy Godmother who offers to pay all your fuel costs until you die and she also pops the door of her garage to reveal her 2 cars. One is the top of the range 5 series diesel, the other is an M5. She says " Take your pick, choose one and one only."
So, which do you choose?
I would argue that if to you a car is solely a means of getting from A to B then you'd probably be better off with the diesel (it's a bit more comfortable, after all), more so if you actually were paying for the fuel. But for somebody who sees a car as something more than a taxi, an 'enthusiast' say, then there is no choice. M5 every time.
Take a look at the U.S.A., petrol prices may be rising but it's still very cheap. Now how many diesels are we going to find when we play 'I spy' there? Virtually none, because the whole diesel movement revolves around saving money (mpg again) rather than the enthusiasm generated by the petrol engine. So who the hell actually really wants a diesel for the driving experience?
Your head says diesel, but what do you really want?
Kevin

c_maguire

Yes, Subaru and I both realise that Euro Joe Average likes diesels because Joe believes (whether rightly or wrongly) that they are cheaper to run and his only other concerns are whether it's comfortable and all his family can get in it. To Joe it's a means of getting from A to B but he also likes it if his neighbours are a little bit impressed.
But generally this site isn't full of Joes, so requirements will be different. My mother has a turbo diesel (I've even got a light commercial TD) but she is like Joe and it's purely functional, so if I visit I'm unlikely to have her bragging about its' performance credentials.
This thread started with comments regarding the relative performance of petrol verses diesel. I am categorically stating that on a performance basis diesels are currently not even in the same ball park as petrol engined cars.
In France diesels are king, but then fuel prices are low for diesel and they tend to have different priorities re. car choice as you will see very few 'sporty' cars (the same applies with motorcycles where big trailies are popular). The UK is fairly unique in its' love of 'sporty' cars and bikes and diesel is the most expensive fuel of all, so couple that with a higher purchase price and more regular servicing of diesels and you have to cover a lot of miles before the 'cheaper to run' argument stacks up anyway.
If Subaru want to stick diesels in the Forester or Legacy then to me that makes a lot of sense, the Impreza 2l sport could be a diesel. But please do not have anything other than petrol in the Impreza Turbo, at least save that from the creeping tedium that is a diesel engine.
Kevin

Fabioso

I had a 57 reg 1.6 petrol Astra as a hire car recently. I have been driving the VW 1.9 tdi for getting on for 2 and a half years and I was gob smacked just how gutless this 1.6 petrol engine was. I mean it was only 5 speed and therefore I suppose bottom of the range etc but there was absolutely nothing happening with your foot to the floor at about 60. The difference in usable ooomph compared to the 1.9 tdi unit I was used to now staggered me..............for an everyday car, diesel seems to be the way to go now and I wouldn't have said that about 3 years ago

Blueblaster

Kevin, I think you and I need to look at this from one another's perspective. I totally agree with you that diesel's are dull. They are great to live with in terms of usable power, economy and general running costs. From the point of view of an enthusiastic driver they really do offer very little in terms of excitement. However, there comes a point where the value of the excitement that you get from a high performance petrol engine is outweighed by the huge financial benefits of going diesel. I am saving enough money to fill a cash ISA every year. While petrol is a big saving you can add another £1000 in road tax, insurance, tyres and brakes. For example, I am going to get 30,000 miles out of this set of tyres. That is 500 quid in your pocket straight away.

With petrol prices rising higher every day there will come a point where even you are going to have to make the switch. The cost argument is going to be too great to ignore. How about giving this a try. Next time you go to a cash point take out the amount of money it just cost you to fill up your car with petrol. Put this cash in a jar. In two months take a look at how much money is in that jar and think for a moment what you could do with it. And all you'd have to do to get that money is change the type of car you drive and the way you drive it.

Henrik

iTrader: (5)

I think the way forward is having two cars One scooby and another work / commute hack, be that a diesel or small petrol engine.

Edit: there's absolutely _no way_ I'd commute to work in an impreza, it's just mental on fuel when compared to my 1.4 clio, which does london traffic better than the impreza anyway (at 30mpg vs 15mpg)

prestigesec

It not just fuel economy it is performance i have a 340bhp type r impreza only a week ago i was coming on the motorway with a guy in his 335d bmw obviously i dropped a cog went round him to shoot up the motorway unfortunatly the guy driving his diesel had other ideas, saw me come up on his outside as i got the jump on him didnt like it so he put his foot down and just left me for dead, obviously i was not impressed and could not get anywhere near him until i pulled in the shell garage and there he was i went over asked what he had done to it he said simple just got it chipped and now has 668nm tourque which for those out there who are obsessed with bhp figures its actually tourque that moves you. So there we go for everyone who says diesel can never match petrol think again, regards a very red faced impreza owner.

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

I bought my 330D - as opposed to a 330i - for the driving experience. I love a characterful turbocharged engine, and the low rev grunt from the 330D's motor makes it one of the most flexible and responsive engines I've ever had the pleasure of driving.


No "...for a diesel" qualifier necessary.

Avalyn

Same here ... swapped my Foz STi for a 330D.

The main point was the saving in fuel (40 mpg), insurance (I've halved it to £250) and road tax (and gawd knows how much this will cost for a band G+ in a few years) which is now about £170.

I must admit though after 3 scoobies I'm enjoying the driving experience of the turbo diesel. Once mapped it'll rev nicely to 5K (only 1K short of where a UK WRX runs out of puff anyway) and gets going much quicker lower down.

It's entirely up to you what you want to drive, given the M5, 535D question above .. if you were to say - take your pick - your not paying for insurance, road tax, petrol or servicing then M5 all the way. Add any one of them back in and I'm taking the 535D.

Avalyn

RB5SCOTT

Wait until they make diesels rev higher A diesel kills its petrol equivalent in every aspect until it reaches its cut out. Revs makes power, diesels don't rev

c_maguire

Again, this is not a fair comparison as the diesel engine is virtually twice the size of yours. Hop in a Porsche 911 turbo and do the test again and see how he gets on ( you could even offer him 20K for mods and he'd still get blown into the weeds). For what you pay the Impreza gives you a hell of a package to play with but compare it to say a tweaked Leon Cupra TDCi and then see what happens.
Kevin

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Who cares if the diesel engine is physically larger?

The 335D is actually a 3.0 litre twin-turbo, and produces nearly 300bhp as standard.

gpssti4

iTrader: (6)

[quote=prestigesec;7691683]on board computer reading 50mpg!!! quote]

It may read over 50mpg, but the computer's been fooled by the tuning box. If he checks his econony by filling the tank, running for xxx miles and then refueling and working out his economy I expect you'll find the 'computer' is about 20% out.

I know mine was

All in all though I agree with what you're saying. These cars are now fast enough to be fun and frugal enough to be able to go out and enjoy them with out worrying about where the next V-Power station is!!!

c_maguire

I'm not convinced diesel cars will ever lend themselves to being real driver's cars in the same way as petrol cars because of the way they deliver their power. Take a mildly tweaked Impreza with a 7k redline and from 4k on power will build pretty much all the way to the redline, cue gear change. The equivalent diesel ( Leon Cupra TDCi ) will deliver its' goods from 2k to around just below 5k. Diesels tend to tail off gradually, they become wheezy, so you don't have that obvious gear change point. Run the two cars into a corner pushing hard and I for one like to keep the petrol car in its' sweet spot somewhere around 5.5k, allowing fine adjustments of throttle to control slide and enough in reserve to power out from the apex. The higher revs of the petrol car and the fact it is 'on song' offer very precise control. The same situation in the diesel and you'd be doing 3.5k if you applied the same principles ( the sort of revs you'd only see between gear changes in the petrol ). If it breaks away on throttle you just don't have the same level of control.
Diesel performance is just more readily accessible to most people purely because when you're driving a diesel gently you are already in its' power band. Drive the petrol similarly and you won't be. So roll-on performance figures for diesels are good. So what! Change down a gear Mr. Petrol and let the good times roll.
Kevin

prestigesec

Why then have Audi gone to a diesel at le man and before you say fuel economy it isnt cause they have to use smaller tanks, It is obvious that performance is moving the way of diesel as if it wasnt Audi and peugeot would still be racing petrol cars and who performed best at le man last year? You geussed it Audi and Peugeot

Blueblaster

Now, I spent most of my 20s driving faster than I should have, but never once did I drive like this. I used to love hammering my CTR and STI, but never did I take the car into a controlled slide as I navigated a corner. If this is how you drive I think I can understand why you hate diesels so much. I am not being self-righteous here as the reason I don't drive that way is because I don't have that level of car control. If you are a regular at track days I can perhaps see you point of view a little more clearly, but it is still a million miles away from the kind of driving I do that I fear we are never going to agree.

GazTheHat

Aye, that's true. I use my mapped fabia for the commute (100 miles) and what a hoot it is to drive, easy to catch people out and pull away quickly. I get around 50MPG average.

The STi is for a little fun or change and the feel good factor. It's harder to drive and has to be pushed to get the same performance as the vRS. But when it's going......

c_maguire

The Audi Le Mans car does seem to be the ace in the hole pro-diesellists throw on the table as a spoiler. I admit I am not familiar with the rules governing that racing ( maybe there are concessions to the rules for diesel cars ). I'll have to check it out.
Kevin

prestigesec

There is because when they 1st came on the scene they had the same size fuel tank as everyone and just never lost so everyone complained said it wasnt fair which in a way is true so the diesel powered cars run smaller fuel tanks now so they roughly do the same miles to a tank as the petrol cars yet they still win all the time. What next lewis Hamilton driving a diesel F1 car lol