m1cks

Afraid it only changes from Motorway "M" road to dual carriageway "A" ONCE. This is at the Pease Pottage services junction.
Is that the Bolney turn off? If so, it would have been daul-carriageway for a good 4-5 miles. Very unusual to see a copper on that bridge as there is no way for them to get on to the southbound carriageway if they see a car they want to stop. Just because the description is "Dual Carriageway", does not mean if theres 3 lanes motorway rules apply. The best way to remember is if the signs are blue then it's motorway and if they are green/white then it's not. The limit for HGV's is 50mph there but how many do you see not doing their max?
I think you were just unlucky to have been the one singled out, but unfortunatly saying they should have stopped him/her/them as well is no defence.

Semper

Dual Carriageway doesn't refer to the number of lanes on the road.

ABD - Know Your Speed Limits

While most drivers are clear about what a motorway is, some are confused about the definition of a dual carriageway. For a road to be classed as a dual carriageway, the two directions of traffic flow must be physically separated by a central reservation. A road where the two directions of flow are separated only by lines painted on the road surface is a single carriageway, regardless of the number of traffic lanes that may be available to the traffic in each direction. So a road with three or four lanes is still a single carriageway if there is no central reservation.

m1cks

They could be made a lot clearer in all honesty! I have my B and C+E categories so that is 4 different sets of driving hours I have had to remember. They are all fairly similliar but it is quite easy to mix one up with another unless you use then on a daily basis. When you start bringing in the daily rest, weekly rest, and then the working time directive, is it any wonder people get confused?

94impreza

I was called into a managers office a few weeks ago and asked if i could drive a 7.5 tonne. When i said i'd never driven one the Operations Manager then said "You only need an assessment" , "No i'd need to have lessons and a test in one"..... you should have seen how puzzled he was. It took about 5 times of me explaining i passed my test in '03 and didn't have "grandad-rights" to drive a 7.5 tonne for him to realise.

I think this thread shows the difference's of opinion, that this isn't a black and white situation that everyone's aware of. I'd go as far as to say a lot of traffic cops would be pretty confused by this situation.
If i was caught at 85mph i wouldn't do anything but kick myself and except the consequences. Although ultimately i'm responsible to know the limit and the class of my vehicle, i feel my employer, especially when i was assessed are also responsible. I also think the local authorities are partly responsible for not clearly indicating the changes of speed limits.

m1cks

Unfortunatley I know the road very well. It clearly states "End of Motorway" at the Pease Pottage junction. There is no notification of a change in speed limit as it stays the same. (NSL), it is the type of road, which changes, and determines the limit here.
I have read elsewhere about this on the A27, so I can only assume there is a traffic officer in Sussex who reads the highway code every night and has taken it upon themself to "educate" drivers who are not aware. I have never heard of this anywhere else, so I dont think most forces/officers bother wth it.

nooobyscoooby

I think you will find that you have been picked up at least a couple of hundred yards before your blue circle - possibly even before the slip road.

I've always understood that by the time you see the plod or camera van you are way too late. Certainly on the couple of occasions I have actually sat in a camera van after chatting to the operators, the rule that they are supposed to see you and judge that you may be exceeding the limit before operating the device is clearly ignored and it would always be my opening line of defence should I ever get caught.

If you have a photographic licence, I think you will find there are diagrams on the back of what you are allowed to drive. [I have just sent mine away for a change of address so I can't check.]

Regrettably, as others have said, it is YOUR responsibility to know the law relating to the vehicle you are driving - whether you are entiled to drive it, the various speed limits relating to it, and whether or not you should be using a tachograph, etc..

Indeed, if it is a company vehicle you are the one who gets fined if there isn't a NO SMOKING sticker in it. Moreover, if you use your personal car on business, get paid an allowance or mileage and your business mileage is greater than your private mileage you must put a NO SMOKING sticker in your own vehicle!

If the Union is prepared to pick up the tab, fine, but be aware that if you go to court the magistrates can and do impose bigger fines on the basis you are wasting their time. Sometimes, unjust though it may be, it is cheaper and simpler to take the 3 points and the fine.

You can always ask if the police force concerned do speed awareness and road safety training as an alternative. It costs more, but there's no points.

m1cks

Not Sussex unfortunatly.

94impreza

What you can't see on the picture is that the slip road is on the crest of a hill.

By your estimation what size is this sign? I would say its about 2ft by 3ft, not above the road on a bridge but alongside. If it was important that the driver knew they were in a 60 limit not a 70 then surely one sign at one section isn't enough, especially if you drive this journey again and count the national speed limit signs, i'd say there's 100 between Pease Pottage and Brighton. When you come through Handcross have a look at the sign "Unmarked Police Cars Operate in the area" i'd estimate that sign is 15ft by 10ft, quite easy to spot.
Technically i'm in the wrong, but technically i'd say 99% of the drivers on that road have no idea its a 60 not a 70. I drive between the East Grinstead turn off and Bolney 4 times a day, and have done for 2 and a half years. Realistically speaking there is no difference between the road between Pease Pottage and East Grinstead as there is between Pease Pottage and Handcross, and theres only one small sign to depict the difference in say 6/7 miles?

I am basically the victim of a jobsworth and a lack of information being displayed properly. Educating drivers as you say may be a good thing to do, but as i've stated well displayed signs would do this. Or maybe slapping someone on the wrist by pulling them over and informing them. 3 points and £60 fine i feel is a massive punishment for what i see is partly the fault of "Sussex Safer Highways"...... *******!

SteveScooby

iTrader: (2)

Ir's not a 60 for all drivers though, for the majority who are driving cars then the limit is still 70

97TURBO

Being a works van u will be given a driver information slip where u put your details. Fill this out as normal but do not sign the slip. Send it away. It will then be returned explaining it is incomplete and not signed, just send it away again and thats the last u will hear of it.
Yes u may have heard it all before and think its just another scam that wont work, but it will
No need to worry about who was in the right or wrong.

94impreza

What makes you say that?

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

I don't know the road, but unless I'm missing the point, the road goes from an M road to an A road at some point. Because it is still a duel carriageway, it will have either a NSL sign or nothing at all, because it still remains NSL, so therefore, there is no actual need for any sign as such.

The problem for you is that because you were in a van, on an A road, not a motorway you are limited to 60 not 70. The limit for that raod is still NSL, and for cars/bikes etc. they would still be able to travel at 70, so no need for clear signposting otherwise.

m1cks

There's one either side of the carriageway and NSL signs not long after the on-ramp from Pease Pottage. 2X3 is a fair estimation but I don't know what the legal requirement is. It seems in keeping with many other "end of motorway" signs I have seen.
As I have said previously, this is the second time I have heard of this and only ever in Sussex so you may be right!
Unfortunatly the info is there and although it may not be as big as the "unmarked car" signs, they can still clearly be seen.
It's all in highway code and IIRC you passed your test in 2003, so the speed limits for vehicles would have been a possible question in the theory test. Also NSL signs are displayed. Perhaps as you admit driving this stretch 4 times a day can make you less aware of signs that are now part of the scenery.
I agree about the points and fine but the roadsigns are the responsibility of the Highways Agency/Local Council, not the Safety Camera Partnership.

I'm not having a dig and personally, I think it is very unfair you have been caught/singled out, for this. there have been many times when I have been up and down the 23 in a van above the (60) limit. Do you get 30 mins free legal advice with a union solicitor? If so, take it. Even if it means 30 mins of your day on the telephone, it could help you keep a clean licence. Who do you work for out of interest?

andy97

iTrader: (1)

Unless this offence took place in Scotland where the unsigned method is still a working tactic. If he does this in England, he will land himself with a failing to identify summons and a real possiblilty of 6 points for one offence. Please dont give misleading advice.

Andy

94impreza

I have spoken to union rep who was looking into it, i'll ask him today. I work for . If you read back through this thread its fairly obvious that this is a situation which effects a lot of people, that the general public aren't quite as educated on dual carraigeways, what makes a motorway a motorway and the speed limits.
I may dig out my theory test book today if i still have it, and see if theres a section that questions you about speed limits on selected roads.

Jerome

I've had class C since 96 and C+E since 2001. I've mostly driven military vehicles on these licences, but did do a stint of driving C+E with tachos etc a couple of years ago.

I'm well aware of the lower limits for C and C+E vehicles (and also for various military vehicles), but was completely unaware of lower limits for vans over 2 tonnes and under 3.5.

I've had to take tests on the highway code many times through the military, and I was still unaware of lower limits for large vans.

Were these lower limits introduced recently, or has it always been thus?

94impreza

It would appear it has always been so. I found out a few hours ago it was the assesor at my work who gave my details to the police a couple of weeks ago. Although quite obviously he has to by law, i've seen and spoke to him several times in the last couple of weeks and he hasn't mentioned at all that i or another driver were about to be collared. Seen as its partly his responsibility to make drivers aware of speed limits in all vehicles, i think his attitude stank pointing the finger at me. I also had a crash a few months back and company policy after every blame-worthy accident is that you are re-assessed. This fella at the time said i needed an assessment and winked saying "If anyone asks you have had one".

94impreza

Lol ok i just telephoned them as theres no option to contest. I spoke to "Fiona" who said that "Any vehicle like a transit, or sprinter or you know, an escort van is considered a goods vehicle". I then pointed out that en escort van was in the highway code a "car-derived van" and is therefore able to do 70 on a dual carraigeway. Even their own employee's are unaware lol.
My girfriend made a good point. When you hire a transit van from a hire company using an ordinary every-day licence you are not made aware of any speed limit changes. I asked "Fiona" and she said it was not a legal requirement for hire companies to notify people of any speed limit changes.

She also in a condesending manor said i should write in and put everything down as to why i feel this is unfair, chuckling to herself she said she gauruntee's i would not even be given the chance to appeal.
I am starting to consider contacting the local newspapers to see what their stance would be on it.

pwhittle

I've never noticed the 2-3.5 car-derived issue, and i've study driving theory quite a bit when doing the instructor training. It's possible I skimmed over the van bit as not relevant, I guess many people would, as they would for towing / motorbikes, if they didn't think it was relevant to them.
Bad luck in this case I think

m1cks

If you have search, look at one of 911's threads when he got a speeding ticket. There is a lot of debate about dual-single carriageways and possibly some lin ks to more info.
I agree with the above though, I have sat 4 different theory tests (car, bike, bus and hgv) and don't recall seeing the different limits for vans mentioned anywhere.
Your employer would have had to fill out the NIP naming the driver but they are advised not to tell you or say anything until the police contact you directly.

al4x1

don't bother contesting it, you've been done bang to rights. Motorways are all signed blue signs etc you were on an A road on a signed NSL and as such ignorance is unfortunately no defence. You can argue dual carriageways with 3 lanes aren't dual but they also aren't motorways. Chalk it up to experience and just take the points it'll cost you more to let it get to court and try and argue it and you'll still loose.

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

I don't know personally whether this issue over different speed limits for vans is a new thing, but here is a link to the relevant section of the Highway Code where it is explained.

117-126: Control of the vehicle : Directgov - Travel and transport

TBH, as said above I would be reluctant to contest it, if nothing else it will end up being more costly for yourself,and I think you would pretty much certainly not win (fair or not). Most likely, all that would be said to you is that ignorance is not defence, as a driver, it is your responsibility to be aware of the type of road you are on, and the limit that therefore applies. No matter how many other people say they were also unaware of this, would most likely not help either. Ultimately the information is there, and it is ultimately up to you to know it.

Again, I'm not saying it is necessarily fair, and the fact you've been done here sounds more to do with bad luck, due to the area. I have never heard of this either until now, and my bloke is also a delivery driver, but even he was unaware too.

andy97

iTrader: (1)

See page nine for information re different speed limits for vehicles

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety...knowyourlimits

Andy

94impreza

Realistically this means me selling my scoob. I can barely afford to insure it and only drive it once a week because i can't afford to put petrol in it due to the rise in petrol prices. I got a 5yr loan 2 years ago to buy it along with other things, selling it now means i'd be paying for something i don't have for a further 3 yrs.

My job relies on my licence, i have been looking at changing jobs and having 3 points on my licence could affect me being able to change to another driving job.

andy97

iTrader: (1)

millions of people have 3 points on their licence, it shouldnt really effect you or your job.

zip106

This speed limit also applies to pick-ups.
On the one hand a pick-up is classed as a commercial vehicle, but to the Inland Revenue, if it has 4 seats and a rear canopy it's classed as a car for BIK tax purposes.

No wonder people are confused.
The government get their monies one way or the other.

m1cks

Most employers (even potential) will accept a licence with 3 points for speeding, and I don't think insurance companies hammer you as much now as they once did.
I remember turning up for an agency job and the client was surprised that my licence was clean. That shows how commonplace speeding points are nowadays.

m1cks

Checked when I came down today. Max visibility between bridge and crest of hill and curve of bend is 400m.
And from the end of the motorway to where the plod were is 10km, yes TEN.

94impreza

So about 6-7 miles. Realisticaly though its already been established that the part of the road i was clocked on was 70mph for cars, 60 for commercial vehicles. In my conversation with our assessor at work he said i'd been speeding, the limit was 60. It took me 2 or 3 minutes to convince him the only reason i'd been given a ticket is because of the vehicle i was in. Even our bloody assessor was unaware. The entire morning shift of our dept (6 drivers) and the afternoon shift (6 drivers) were unaware of this law, 2 operations managers, the assessor, my brother-in-law (ambulance driver) and father-in-law (senior paramedic).

I've had 3 theory tests passed all 3, a CBT, a bike test, 10 or so lessons in a car and a full car test, this is my second driving job the first being in a sprinter and i've also been assessed for my current job.

It would be easy to just accept the 3 points, but why should i? "Fiona" said i would be advised to accept the "offer" of 3 points and £60, but its not an offer its a demand, if i dare speak up i'll get even worse. Its an example of how this country is these days, that you don't have any rights even to voice your opinion to the people who enforce the laws even though they don't enforce them properly.

vindaloo

I think the situation you find yourself in is irritating and unfortunate.

However, unless you wish to contest the speeding offence and be bl**dy minded about it, just cough up the dosh and take the 3 points. You were the driver, so in law, you are the responsible party. Anything you do or say that admits guilt is effectively "game over" as regards the judiciary are concerned.

For the other stuff, phone your insurance company. Find out for yourself "hypothetically" if a single speeding offence will affect your premium. If you don't you'll only stress about it until renewal.

As for your work... A card/plaque in every cab listing the speed limits for that vehicle on differing types of road would maybe be helpful.

J.