For anyone following the Protein/weights and stuff threads I've been posting
05 March 2008, 12:23 PM
#31
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Look, it's very easy to over complicate things. For most people, who just want to tone up and put on a bit of muscle (not Hulk proportions) then it's very simple.
1) There are no magic potions; significant improvements take time, anyone who tells you otherwise is a) trying to sell you something b) on steroids. Accept this, or all is lost as you'll soon loose motivation.
2) Supplements are just that, supplements, NOT replacements for a good diet!
Sort your diet out first: decent amount of protein, lower amounts of fat. Eat sensible portions and not late at night. Cut back on the beer, it's highly calorific! As for supplements, decent whey protein good enough for most. I find Multipower to be excellent, was recommended to me by someone on here.
3) Don't just stare at the skirt in the gym, you wanna develop, you need to give your body impetus to develop, i.e. challenge it! No silly weights and v low reps for beginners, aim for 3 sets of 10 reps with a weight that makes the last few reps hard! increase weight slightly as the last few reps get easier. Nice balance between strength and tone that way and gives you a chance to practice good form.
4) If you're not sure how to so something properly, ask the gym staff for help!
5) Rest: no back to back days working on the same muscle groups, and get a good nights sleep. Rest is a prerequsite for muscle growth.
For most people the above is enough!
Ns04
1) There are no magic potions; significant improvements take time, anyone who tells you otherwise is a) trying to sell you something b) on steroids. Accept this, or all is lost as you'll soon loose motivation.
2) Supplements are just that, supplements, NOT replacements for a good diet!
Sort your diet out first: decent amount of protein, lower amounts of fat. Eat sensible portions and not late at night. Cut back on the beer, it's highly calorific! As for supplements, decent whey protein good enough for most. I find Multipower to be excellent, was recommended to me by someone on here.
3) Don't just stare at the skirt in the gym, you wanna develop, you need to give your body impetus to develop, i.e. challenge it! No silly weights and v low reps for beginners, aim for 3 sets of 10 reps with a weight that makes the last few reps hard! increase weight slightly as the last few reps get easier. Nice balance between strength and tone that way and gives you a chance to practice good form.
4) If you're not sure how to so something properly, ask the gym staff for help!
5) Rest: no back to back days working on the same muscle groups, and get a good nights sleep. Rest is a prerequsite for muscle growth.
For most people the above is enough!
Ns04
05 March 2008, 12:37 PM
#32
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You make some valid points but also some flawed ones as well.
Agreed if you are drug free i would advise on doing only 3 days a week max with each bodypart being trained only once per week as it is so easy to overtrain and to get stronger (and bigger) your body needs adequate protein, nutrition and sufficient rest to grow lean muscle.
However the stronger you become the more likelyhood of injury rears its ugly head and you must do a few warm up sets first
Say i do bench press, i do at least 3 warm up sets rising up in weight each time where i do 2 sets of really heavy weights.
If i just blasted into heavy reps i would possibly end up with a pec tear (which is nasty) so i have to do a few warm up sets to avoid this although as you state too many and you fatigue the body to the point that is not beneficial - what i will say is this....
When for instance i do 5 sets on the Bench i.e. 3 warm up and 2 heavy when i proceed to inclines i can pretty much go heavy as my pectorals have already been warmed up.
BTW take no bloody notice of these so called scientists and doctors, most and i repeat the word most know bugger all when it comes to heavy training.
What really did it for me is when i changed my diet, i've lost over 3 stone yet gained an inch on my arms which are about 18 inches and i am completely drug free.
in a nutshell....
Do a full body workout over 2-3 days spread out over a week.
Warm up adequately but go as heavy as possible, aim for between 4-6 reps on your heaviest set.
Eat 5-6 small meals a day spread out as your mtabolism will be stimulated
(your body cannot cope with massive meals in one go and normally get put on as fat)
Plenty of rest.
And trust me you will grow.
Agreed if you are drug free i would advise on doing only 3 days a week max with each bodypart being trained only once per week as it is so easy to overtrain and to get stronger (and bigger) your body needs adequate protein, nutrition and sufficient rest to grow lean muscle.
However the stronger you become the more likelyhood of injury rears its ugly head and you must do a few warm up sets first
Say i do bench press, i do at least 3 warm up sets rising up in weight each time where i do 2 sets of really heavy weights.
If i just blasted into heavy reps i would possibly end up with a pec tear (which is nasty) so i have to do a few warm up sets to avoid this although as you state too many and you fatigue the body to the point that is not beneficial - what i will say is this....
When for instance i do 5 sets on the Bench i.e. 3 warm up and 2 heavy when i proceed to inclines i can pretty much go heavy as my pectorals have already been warmed up.
BTW take no bloody notice of these so called scientists and doctors, most and i repeat the word most know bugger all when it comes to heavy training.
What really did it for me is when i changed my diet, i've lost over 3 stone yet gained an inch on my arms which are about 18 inches and i am completely drug free.
in a nutshell....
Do a full body workout over 2-3 days spread out over a week.
Warm up adequately but go as heavy as possible, aim for between 4-6 reps on your heaviest set.
Eat 5-6 small meals a day spread out as your mtabolism will be stimulated
(your body cannot cope with massive meals in one go and normally get put on as fat)
Plenty of rest.
And trust me you will grow.
But I remember reading many articles (some scientific studies too) that debunk the warm-up 'theory' of injury-prevention (if you can call it that) altogether.
That is not to say a warm-up has no benefits, its just that injury prevention probably isn't one of them.
I think this article sums up what I am trying to say:
High Intensity Training by Drew Baye - Is It Necessary To Warm Up For Resistance Training?
05 March 2008, 12:46 PM
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Its easy to get carried away reading the latest theories on the net, there are so many conflicting reports its untrue.
I would and personally take no notice of a lot of this written by so called 'experts' and there is a lot of b***ocks spouted on the web.
Do what works for you!!!!
you've obviously made some impressive gains and good on you for doing that.
If we believed everything we read (i've been so guilty of this in the past) then we'd get nowhere.
BTW i used to believe that Dorian Yates got so big just by drinking the latest protein shake and having a high intensity workout.
I would and personally take no notice of a lot of this written by so called 'experts' and there is a lot of b***ocks spouted on the web.
Do what works for you!!!!
you've obviously made some impressive gains and good on you for doing that.
If we believed everything we read (i've been so guilty of this in the past) then we'd get nowhere.
BTW i used to believe that Dorian Yates got so big just by drinking the latest protein shake and having a high intensity workout.
05 March 2008, 01:01 PM
#34
oh Christ what have I started!
This is why I wasn't seeking advice !
Too many opinions all of which I have no doubt are good !
If one of you wants to spend a few hours a week in my local gym showing me how to do things then I'm more than happy and grateful for your help. Otherwise I really have no option but to trust the person currently training me !
Again thank you for your replies.
This is why I wasn't seeking advice !
Too many opinions all of which I have no doubt are good !
If one of you wants to spend a few hours a week in my local gym showing me how to do things then I'm more than happy and grateful for your help. Otherwise I really have no option but to trust the person currently training me !
Again thank you for your replies.
05 March 2008, 01:28 PM
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05 March 2008, 01:52 PM
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oh Christ what have I started!
This is why I wasn't seeking advice !
Too many opinions all of which I have no doubt are good !
If one of you wants to spend a few hours a week in my local gym showing me how to do things then I'm more than happy and grateful for your help. Otherwise I really have no option but to trust the person currently training me !
Again thank you for your replies.
This is why I wasn't seeking advice !
Too many opinions all of which I have no doubt are good !
If one of you wants to spend a few hours a week in my local gym showing me how to do things then I'm more than happy and grateful for your help. Otherwise I really have no option but to trust the person currently training me !
Again thank you for your replies.
Dont worry about it mate.
If the guy your training with knows his stuff then carry on as you are if you are making progress and are happy.
05 March 2008, 01:53 PM
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Its easy to get carried away reading the latest theories on the net, there are so many conflicting reports its untrue.
I would and personally take no notice of a lot of this written by so called 'experts' and there is a lot of b***ocks spouted on the web.
Do what works for you!!!!
you've obviously made some impressive gains and good on you for doing that.
If we believed everything we read (i've been so guilty of this in the past) then we'd get nowhere.
BTW i used to believe that Dorian Yates got so big just by drinking the latest protein shake and having a high intensity workout.
I would and personally take no notice of a lot of this written by so called 'experts' and there is a lot of b***ocks spouted on the web.
Do what works for you!!!!
you've obviously made some impressive gains and good on you for doing that.
If we believed everything we read (i've been so guilty of this in the past) then we'd get nowhere.
BTW i used to believe that Dorian Yates got so big just by drinking the latest protein shake and having a high intensity workout.
I used to love the nicknames they had - 'Brutal Bertil' (Bertil Fox) being one of my faves. Taken out of context it makes him sound like an S&M freak
How about 'pounding pimmo' ?
Sorry Pimmo but you did ask for advice !
05 March 2008, 02:14 PM
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Do you really think I would have the audacity to make such a post if I didn't have any experience/knowledge ?
It just gets to me that after 20 years I still see what is essentially urban myth and pseudo-science passed on to people seeking advice by those whose knowledge stems from reading glossly muscle mags or simply because so-and-so down the gym told them.
I researched the subject extensively myself in both peer-reviewed scientific journals and less formal articles written by exercise scientists eg. Arthur Jones.
What did all this research tell me ? It told me this:
That maximum muscular growth response in a muscle can be achieved with as little as one set of an exercise IF that set is performed with high enough intensity. This intensity may be achieved by taking the set to the point of momentary muscular failure or periodically slightly beyond (eg. by the use of pre-exhaustion or drop down sets) or by the use of even more demanding techniques such as negative-only sets or super-slow (which should be used in moderation so as to avoid over-training).
Multiple sets of the same exercise are not neccessary, you can get all the growth stimulation you need from one set of an exercise if performed properly.
Maximum growth is stimulated by using a weight that represents around 80% of your one-rep max (lower than this and the exercise begins to stray into aerobic rarther than anaerobic for the muscle/s in question). This is termed as an '80% inroad'). In fact the number of repetitions that someone can perform before hitting momentary failure with 80% of their one-rep max varys hugley between individuals (from 4 to around 34 from a particular experiment I remember performed by Arthur Jones). Thus 8-12 reps isn't the ideal rep range for everyone, its merely the middle in a bell curve distribution.
So 3 x bench press, then 3 x peck deck, then 3 x dips for your chest is a waste of time and effort when one set of each would suffice to stimulate growth in your pectorals (and also to a great degree the triceps and anterior/lateral deltoid from the bench press and dips).
Training in such a high intensity fashion is extremely taxing and as such the total number of sets for any session should be limited to around 20-25 for the entire body. You should rest (only engage in low intensity activities) for at leat 48 hrs between sessions to allow your CNS to recover as well as the muscles you have exercised, growth will not occur until full recovery has taken place.
I could go on and on about diet etc but there is no point - see no evil, speak no evil...
My results speak for themselves
9.5 stone to 13 stone of lean muscle mass by training 3 days a week, performing only 20 sets in total for the entire body, plenty of rest, and an amazing increase in strength, after 18 months or so of training. I then hit the limit set by my genetics, and theres no going through that plateau without chemical help. So train hard to maintain what you have built and prevent atrophy.
And this is from someone who is in the main an ectomorph (cue the jokes!).
It just gets to me that after 20 years I still see what is essentially urban myth and pseudo-science passed on to people seeking advice by those whose knowledge stems from reading glossly muscle mags or simply because so-and-so down the gym told them.
I researched the subject extensively myself in both peer-reviewed scientific journals and less formal articles written by exercise scientists eg. Arthur Jones.
What did all this research tell me ? It told me this:
That maximum muscular growth response in a muscle can be achieved with as little as one set of an exercise IF that set is performed with high enough intensity. This intensity may be achieved by taking the set to the point of momentary muscular failure or periodically slightly beyond (eg. by the use of pre-exhaustion or drop down sets) or by the use of even more demanding techniques such as negative-only sets or super-slow (which should be used in moderation so as to avoid over-training).
Multiple sets of the same exercise are not neccessary, you can get all the growth stimulation you need from one set of an exercise if performed properly.
Maximum growth is stimulated by using a weight that represents around 80% of your one-rep max (lower than this and the exercise begins to stray into aerobic rarther than anaerobic for the muscle/s in question). This is termed as an '80% inroad'). In fact the number of repetitions that someone can perform before hitting momentary failure with 80% of their one-rep max varys hugley between individuals (from 4 to around 34 from a particular experiment I remember performed by Arthur Jones). Thus 8-12 reps isn't the ideal rep range for everyone, its merely the middle in a bell curve distribution.
So 3 x bench press, then 3 x peck deck, then 3 x dips for your chest is a waste of time and effort when one set of each would suffice to stimulate growth in your pectorals (and also to a great degree the triceps and anterior/lateral deltoid from the bench press and dips).
Training in such a high intensity fashion is extremely taxing and as such the total number of sets for any session should be limited to around 20-25 for the entire body. You should rest (only engage in low intensity activities) for at leat 48 hrs between sessions to allow your CNS to recover as well as the muscles you have exercised, growth will not occur until full recovery has taken place.
I could go on and on about diet etc but there is no point - see no evil, speak no evil...
My results speak for themselves
9.5 stone to 13 stone of lean muscle mass by training 3 days a week, performing only 20 sets in total for the entire body, plenty of rest, and an amazing increase in strength, after 18 months or so of training. I then hit the limit set by my genetics, and theres no going through that plateau without chemical help. So train hard to maintain what you have built and prevent atrophy.
And this is from someone who is in the main an ectomorph (cue the jokes!).
I never followed any guides or got any personal training, in the early days I would watch other body builders (I was fortunate to train in a real meat head gym, something out of an Arnie film) and try and learn any new techniques.
What I found to be fundamental with body building is form like any sport. If your form is correct or you take the time and effort to develop your form over a period of time you will increase the chances of making positive gains from any particular excercise.
I always try to focus on my form to the point where I can confidently say I can hit any type of weight excercise and my brain goes into auto mode where each muscle knows excatly what to do and I am performing the excercise correctly.
If I find my form starts to lack through laziness or lack of concentration I will drop my weights down or reduce my overall routine until I am performing a particular excercise properly - form is everything when your lifting stupid weights yet I have seen so many people get it wrong and you wonder what kind of damage they are doing to their body.
For example only last week, I decided to do a two day week of training, condensing down my excercises to each of the two days. I have just got off a flat bench press and I am stretching my upper body (something I always do during training i.e constantly stretching my muscles to ensure enough blood is getting there and I am don't do any injury).
This plank of a guy walks over, about 6,2" and quite heavily built in comparison to me (I weight 13.5 stones at the moment). I didn't see the guy warm up, he just walks over to the bench I am working out on, sticks on a plate on each side to get the weight up to 100kg and then proceeds to do a set that made me cringe.
He was extending out so far that his elbows were locking and the bar was bouncing on his hands and then he wasn't even brining the bar down properly i.e holding it just above his chest after his lungs have filled up with air to control the weight.
He did this for a set and then walked off and sat down, I put it down to steroids otherwise any normal person couldn't just jump on without a warm up and do that kind of weight immediately. Obviously I had to show the numpty what giving 10 is all about (slang for boasting), got onto the bench with his weight on while he is watching and just because I am a smug *******, I pulled of one of the best sets for the day, slow controlled reps (8 for the set) with proper breathing and solid form.
The trick with body building is working out what works for you and that can take time i.e learning what makes your body work the way it does... we don't normally do this so many people go into body building ignorant of their own bodies mechanics - once you workout the formula i.e:
A good food regime your body likes
A good training schedule your body likes
Enjoy training and lead an active lifestyle
Everything else falls into place after that.
05 March 2008, 02:31 PM
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05 March 2008, 02:56 PM
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05 March 2008, 04:06 PM
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Anyone interested in the HIT philosophy can find a good starting point here:
High Performance Training: A Lesson from Arthur Jones
although the article makes reference to nautilus equipment the principles apply to free weights/regular equipment as well.
Happy training all!
HPL
High Performance Training: A Lesson from Arthur Jones
although the article makes reference to nautilus equipment the principles apply to free weights/regular equipment as well.
Happy training all!
HPL
06 March 2008, 09:17 AM
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If you are serious about your training I think this says it all if you have 2 mins to read in its entirety:
bodybuilding: how many sets? (new evidence)
exactly what I've been trying to say - plus concrete scientific evidence to back it up.
bodybuilding: how many sets? (new evidence)
exactly what I've been trying to say - plus concrete scientific evidence to back it up.
06 March 2008, 09:33 AM
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Interesting reading but i'm always a bit sceptical when these experts have 'DR' in their title
Totally understand in what you saying, in fact some geezer last night must have screamed the place down and did at least 20 shoulder excercises then looked at me all cross eyed when i quietly climbed aboard the shoulder press and preceeded to lift more weight in a more focussed and controlled way.
However i still maintain when you start lifing heavy (well heavy for me) weights you need to do a few warm up sets on your first excercise.
There is no way i could just jump on the bench press and do 300lbs from cold without doing any damage.
Interesting article though
Totally understand in what you saying, in fact some geezer last night must have screamed the place down and did at least 20 shoulder excercises then looked at me all cross eyed when i quietly climbed aboard the shoulder press and preceeded to lift more weight in a more focussed and controlled way.
However i still maintain when you start lifing heavy (well heavy for me) weights you need to do a few warm up sets on your first excercise.
There is no way i could just jump on the bench press and do 300lbs from cold without doing any damage.
Interesting article though
06 March 2008, 09:52 AM
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Interesting reading but i'm always a bit sceptical when these experts have 'DR' in their title
Totally understand in what you saying, in fact some geezer last night must have screamed the place down and did at least 20 shoulder excercises then looked at me all cross eyed when i quietly climbed aboard the shoulder press and preceeded to lift more weight in a more focussed and controlled way.
However i still maintain when you start lifing heavy (well heavy for me) weights you need to do a few warm up sets on your first excercise.
There is no way i could just jump on the bench press and do 300lbs from cold without doing any damage.
Interesting article though
Totally understand in what you saying, in fact some geezer last night must have screamed the place down and did at least 20 shoulder excercises then looked at me all cross eyed when i quietly climbed aboard the shoulder press and preceeded to lift more weight in a more focussed and controlled way.
However i still maintain when you start lifing heavy (well heavy for me) weights you need to do a few warm up sets on your first excercise.
There is no way i could just jump on the bench press and do 300lbs from cold without doing any damage.
Interesting article though
Especially if you're doing low reps....it's just too much to ask of your muscles too quickly. I wince when I see some guys coming in to the gym, chucking weight on the bar and struggling to push out 3 reps. Quick route to an injury. I also use the rowing machine to warm up. Good cardiovascular exercise and also works most of the upper body, so even though there isn't much resistance and least you've served noticed to body that it's about to be asked to work!
LOL Substituting vodka for beer is an interesting idea, unfortunately although it's better in that you need a much smaller volume of liquid to produce the same effect (so less chance of a beer belly from drinking 12 pints very session)
it's still calorific. Many alcoholics pretty much live on alcohol and eat relatively little. Of course, there are zero nutrients etc in it, which is where Korsakoff's syndrome comes in. If you want to get fit, cutting down on the alcohol is a good idea I'm afraid! 
So, you can't drink, you can't smoke, but you can still swear all you like.....actually not at the gym though, cause it makes me laugh, which, ironically, is not funny when you're lifting weights....instant strength sapper!
Ns04
06 March 2008, 10:26 AM
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Interesting reading but i'm always a bit sceptical when these experts have 'DR' in their title
Totally understand in what you saying, in fact some geezer last night must have screamed the place down and did at least 20 shoulder excercises then looked at me all cross eyed when i quietly climbed aboard the shoulder press and preceeded to lift more weight in a more focussed and controlled way.
However i still maintain when you start lifing heavy (well heavy for me) weights you need to do a few warm up sets on your first excercise.
There is no way i could just jump on the bench press and do 300lbs from cold without doing any damage.
Interesting article though
Totally understand in what you saying, in fact some geezer last night must have screamed the place down and did at least 20 shoulder excercises then looked at me all cross eyed when i quietly climbed aboard the shoulder press and preceeded to lift more weight in a more focussed and controlled way.
However i still maintain when you start lifing heavy (well heavy for me) weights you need to do a few warm up sets on your first excercise.
There is no way i could just jump on the bench press and do 300lbs from cold without doing any damage.
Interesting article though
Yes I agree with you - I would never do any exercise from cold.
As I mentioned a general overall warm up worked fine for me, but I see no problem in doing a light set as a prelude to your all-out in the heavier compound exercises. Its just that multiple sets following the warm-up are not neccessary. One slow, high quality (strict form), all-out-to-muscular-failure set is all you need. Thus many people could cut their training volume (number of sets) and with it the time spent in the gym by at least 2/3 if not more - and still get as good as (if not better if they have been overtraining) results.
Keep it hard, keep it brief, keep it infrequent - my workouts lasted 50 mins three times a week, entire body workout. Prior to discovering the HIT philosophy I was a typical 'volume trainer', eg doing split routines and multiple sets of the same exercise - with the result I was spending around an hour and a half or more 4 times a week in the gym.
Thanks for being open-minded and showing some interest !
06 March 2008, 10:09 PM
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Thread Hijack in Progress!!!
Hi guys, I have been going down the gym four to fives times a week for about two years now. Love every minute of it. went from 15,5 stone to 12,5 stone with 13% body fat in about a year, and i'm now getting into my running biking swimming to train for triathlons next year. So, my question is to build up strength not really size or weight what sort of sets should I be doing??
Currently doing a three day split, legs and core(abs), back and biceps and chest and triceps. These are all after cardio sessions usually. At the moment i'm doing a set of 12 then 10 then two sets of 8.
Like I say all I really want is to build strength to try and stay injury free and not pack on mass, which wouldn't help the running.
Cheers in advance
Yim
Hi guys, I have been going down the gym four to fives times a week for about two years now. Love every minute of it. went from 15,5 stone to 12,5 stone with 13% body fat
in about a year, and i'm now getting into my running biking swimming to train for triathlons next year. So, my question is to build up strength not really size or weight what sort of sets should I be doing??Currently doing a three day split, legs and core(abs), back and biceps and chest and triceps. These are all after cardio sessions usually. At the moment i'm doing a set of 12 then 10 then two sets of 8.
Like I say all I really want is to build strength to try and stay injury free and not pack on mass, which wouldn't help the running.
Cheers in advance
Yim
07 March 2008, 09:33 AM
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Thread Hijack in Progress!!!
Hi guys, I have been going down the gym four to fives times a week for about two years now. Love every minute of it. went from 15,5 stone to 12,5 stone with 13% body fat in about a year, and i'm now getting into my running biking swimming to train for triathlons next year. So, my question is to build up strength not really size or weight what sort of sets should I be doing??
Currently doing a three day split, legs and core(abs), back and biceps and chest and triceps. These are all after cardio sessions usually. At the moment i'm doing a set of 12 then 10 then two sets of 8.
Like I say all I really want is to build strength to try and stay injury free and not pack on mass, which wouldn't help the running.
Cheers in advance
Yim
Hi guys, I have been going down the gym four to fives times a week for about two years now. Love every minute of it. went from 15,5 stone to 12,5 stone with 13% body fat
in about a year, and i'm now getting into my running biking swimming to train for triathlons next year. So, my question is to build up strength not really size or weight what sort of sets should I be doing??Currently doing a three day split, legs and core(abs), back and biceps and chest and triceps. These are all after cardio sessions usually. At the moment i'm doing a set of 12 then 10 then two sets of 8.
Like I say all I really want is to build strength to try and stay injury free and not pack on mass, which wouldn't help the running.
Cheers in advance
Yim
I don't think its possible to build strength without adding some additional muscle mass since the two are directly linked. A stronger muscle is a bigger muscle, relatively speaking, for any individual.
Your goal should be to increase your percentage of lean muscle mass (and hence strength), whilst reducing your percentage of body fat.
Training with relatively heavy weights (ie weights that allow for only 8-12 reps before muscular failure), will primarily stimulate increases in muscle size and strength. It's your aerobic exercise (Cardio you mentioned) will help you lose the fat.
Remember that muscle is denser than fat, so that if you gain muscle whilst simultaneously losing fat, it can possibly lead to an overall increase in body weight, even though you may have shed a few pounds of fat. However, since the added weight is in the form of more dense muscle, your overall 'bulk' (especially around those prime fat deposit areas such as the gut) may actually decrease and the apperance of your physique will be improved. As your lean mucle mass/body fat ratio increases you will look better and better.
The best way to train for size and strength ? Read some of the articles I post links to above and also have a read here:
High Intensity Training by Drew Baye
The 'conventional wisdom' isn't always the best!
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ScoobyNet General
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12 September 2015 02:47 PM