Rivers of blood bbc 2 now
09 March 2008, 08:41 PM
#31
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Type 25. Build No.34
Posts: 8,222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you had watched the programme then you might have been more qualified to give an accurate comment instead of jumping in with both feet.
It was an interesting programme and it did underline the fact that he was indeed a farseeing man and he told it like it was. Nothing wrong with that, he gave his honest opinions and time has shown them to be largely correct as far as unfettered immigration is concerned and its effect on our economy and society.
Have you actually noticed how things are shaping in this country at the moment?
Les
It was an interesting programme and it did underline the fact that he was indeed a farseeing man and he told it like it was. Nothing wrong with that, he gave his honest opinions and time has shown them to be largely correct as far as unfettered immigration is concerned and its effect on our economy and society.
Have you actually noticed how things are shaping in this country at the moment?
Les
Why do I need to see the TV programme, did they rewrite history?
He was demonstably wrong though wasn't he, we have no 'rivers of blood' we have problems for sure, but as usual this issue is amplified by the hysterical right wing press, and all perspective is lost.
09 March 2008, 08:48 PM
#32
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Worthing..
Posts: 7,575
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The central issue of Powells speech wasn't so much unchecked immigration, But in opposition of the Race Relations act of 1968 which labour bought in - Which basically made it illegal to discriminate against immigrants for thing slike housign (where previously they would have had to have been here for a number of years before qualifying) - And his prediction of course that you would have entire towns almost exclusively populated by immigrants.
Now, I don;t particualrly agree with his stance on a lot of things - But I think it is possibly unfair to simply label him as a racist, beause I don't think he was. But he was held up as a champion by the National front, which by association made him a racist in the eyes of many
He was also not nearly as right wing as people think - He cosponsdered a bill on Legalising homosexuality, and voted to abolish the death penalty.
Now, I don;t particualrly agree with his stance on a lot of things - But I think it is possibly unfair to simply label him as a racist, beause I don't think he was. But he was held up as a champion by the National front, which by association made him a racist in the eyes of many
He was also not nearly as right wing as people think - He cosponsdered a bill on Legalising homosexuality, and voted to abolish the death penalty.
10 March 2008, 02:36 PM
#34
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well I know lot's of background on Powel, not a racist in my view!
Why do I need to see the TV programme, did they rewrite history?
He was demonstably wrong though wasn't he, we have no 'rivers of blood' we have problems for sure, but as usual this issue is amplified by the hysterical right wing press, and all perspective is lost.
Why do I need to see the TV programme, did they rewrite history?
He was demonstably wrong though wasn't he, we have no 'rivers of blood' we have problems for sure, but as usual this issue is amplified by the hysterical right wing press, and all perspective is lost.
Les
10 March 2008, 04:03 PM
#35
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,280
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just out of interest this from today's industry paper:
TV critics 10 March '08
Enoch Powell
"A Rolls-Royce of a documentary." Read on for the critics' full verdict on the weekend's TV.
Rivers of Blood, BBC2
"[A] Rolls-Royce of a documentary."
Simon Edge, Daily Express
Rivers of Blood, BBC2
"A fabulous documentary."
Sam Wollaston, The Guardian
Rivers of Blood, BBC2
"Denys Blakeway provided a bracingly heretical analysis of Enoch Powell's own prophecy of race war."
James Walton, The Daily Telegraph
Rivers of Blood, BBC2
"The resulting film couldn't answer the question it posed with a yes/no answer […] But it did provide some useful historical context for the melodrama of Powell's rhetoric."
Thomas Sutcliffe, The Independent
D
TV critics 10 March '08
- Published: 10 March 2008 09:49
- Last Updated: 10 March 2008 09:49
Enoch Powell
"A Rolls-Royce of a documentary." Read on for the critics' full verdict on the weekend's TV.
Rivers of Blood, BBC2
"[A] Rolls-Royce of a documentary."
Simon Edge, Daily Express
Rivers of Blood, BBC2
"A fabulous documentary."
Sam Wollaston, The Guardian
Rivers of Blood, BBC2
"Denys Blakeway provided a bracingly heretical analysis of Enoch Powell's own prophecy of race war."
James Walton, The Daily Telegraph
Rivers of Blood, BBC2
"The resulting film couldn't answer the question it posed with a yes/no answer […] But it did provide some useful historical context for the melodrama of Powell's rhetoric."
Thomas Sutcliffe, The Independent
D
10 March 2008, 04:19 PM
#36
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote:
"He was demonstably wrong though wasn't he, we have no 'rivers of blood' "
Except for the riots in Brixton, Toxteth, Bradford, Oldham etc.
Also there was quite a bit of blood flowing after the London bombings!
Oh and there's the no go areas of the country that are ruled by gangs, with gun and knife crime out of control.
But no, apart from that thiings are all looking rosy!
"He was demonstably wrong though wasn't he, we have no 'rivers of blood' "
Except for the riots in Brixton, Toxteth, Bradford, Oldham etc.
Also there was quite a bit of blood flowing after the London bombings!
Oh and there's the no go areas of the country that are ruled by gangs, with gun and knife crime out of control.
But no, apart from that thiings are all looking rosy!
10 March 2008, 04:21 PM
#37
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Surrey/London borders.
Posts: 8,300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Indeed.
Just look at the knife/gun crime on London's streets. Virtually every poor kid murdered was non-white, and the killer was non-white.
That's a lot of blood as far as I'm concerned.
Just look at the knife/gun crime on London's streets. Virtually every poor kid murdered was non-white, and the killer was non-white.
That's a lot of blood as far as I'm concerned.
10 March 2008, 05:21 PM
#39
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,490
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All I do is look at the town I work in.
Totally changed.That's not people telling me,its what I can see with my own eyes.Who owns all the shops and the housing the taxis and the X5's
Totally changed.That's not people telling me,its what I can see with my own eyes.Who owns all the shops and the housing the taxis and the X5's
10 March 2008, 05:32 PM
#40
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think what the programme really showed is that immigration at too high a level creates problems, because once the minority group becomes too large, the whole fabric of the society is changed.
If there was just a small amount of immigration, these people would adapt to the English way of life, as it is, they don't need to because they are basically living in a community of immigrants within England. They don't need to integrate, therefore on the whole they don't.
If there was just a small amount of immigration, these people would adapt to the English way of life, as it is, they don't need to because they are basically living in a community of immigrants within England. They don't need to integrate, therefore on the whole they don't.
10 March 2008, 06:38 PM
#44
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Type 25. Build No.34
Posts: 8,222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote:
"He was demonstably wrong though wasn't he, we have no 'rivers of blood' "
Except for the riots in Brixton, Toxteth, Bradford, Oldham etc.
Also there was quite a bit of blood flowing after the London bombings!
Oh and there's the no go areas of the country that are ruled by gangs, with gun and knife crime out of control.
But no, apart from that thiings are all looking rosy!
"He was demonstably wrong though wasn't he, we have no 'rivers of blood' "
Except for the riots in Brixton, Toxteth, Bradford, Oldham etc.
Also there was quite a bit of blood flowing after the London bombings!
Oh and there's the no go areas of the country that are ruled by gangs, with gun and knife crime out of control.
But no, apart from that thiings are all looking rosy!
As for the London Bombings, that's a complete red herring.
Crime is crime, and we all need to do more to combat it. Most of the examples you site are boil down to bad parenting and lack of economic opportunity, not race!
10 March 2008, 06:44 PM
#45
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Type 25. Build No.34
Posts: 8,222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think what the programme really showed is that immigration at too high a level creates problems, because once the minority group becomes too large, the whole fabric of the society is changed.
If there was just a small amount of immigration, these people would adapt to the English way of life, as it is, they don't need to because they are basically living in a community of immigrants within England. They don't need to integrate, therefore on the whole they don't.
If there was just a small amount of immigration, these people would adapt to the English way of life, as it is, they don't need to because they are basically living in a community of immigrants within England. They don't need to integrate, therefore on the whole they don't.
It's not immigration that is causing the 'problems', it's poorly planned immigration (and more importantly intergration) that is to blame.
Immigration is a positive economic factor is this country.
Please expalin to what is 'the English way of life', Binge Drinking/Drunken violence? Zenophobia? Booing other country's National Anthems? Morris Dancing?
10 March 2008, 06:46 PM
#46
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Disco, Disco!
Posts: 21,825
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You're having reach back pretty far to find example to make your point aren't you?
As for the London Bombings, that's a complete red herring.
Crime is crime, and we all need to do more to combat it. Most of the examples you site are boil down to bad parenting and lack of economic opportunity, not race!
As for the London Bombings, that's a complete red herring.
Crime is crime, and we all need to do more to combat it. Most of the examples you site are boil down to bad parenting and lack of economic opportunity, not race!
Odlham/Bradford where 2003 from memory, so not that long ago.
London bombings far from being a red herring where a wake up call to home grown extreemists, people who live here but have not intergrated and have chosen to blow up innocents in the name of thier God/religion.
Northampton reguilalrly has lage scale fights between groups of eastern europeans who still feel at war with each other, in the same areas i will not even drive through at night.
Mulitculturism - really!
10 March 2008, 06:46 PM
#47
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm using the examples made in the programme, the riots in Bradford Oldham and Burnley were this century.
Why are the London bombs a red herring? It's a widely held belief that our obsession with Multi Culturalism is a major fact in Britain being a hotbed of radical extremism. We have created the perfect breeding ground for it, and are now paying for it.
Why are the London bombs a red herring? It's a widely held belief that our obsession with Multi Culturalism is a major fact in Britain being a hotbed of radical extremism. We have created the perfect breeding ground for it, and are now paying for it.
10 March 2008, 06:53 PM
#48
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Type 25. Build No.34
Posts: 8,222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Again thats just conflating issues, are you suggesting that we would have no crime without immigration?
Black crime, White crime, Asian crime, it's all crime and the colour of the perpetrators is irrelevant.
It's nothing to do with 'rose tinted glasses' I live in the real world, not the hysterical and artificial one so easily to believed if you allow yourself to be influenced by our appalling right wing press and other vested interests.
I'm not saying it's perfect because it clearly isn't and we have huge challenges to overcome, the problem is we as a nation are not prepared to help make those changes, if we continue with intollerance how can we intergrate better? If we carry on believing we can turn the clock back to 'a Great Britain' (whatever that means), then we'll never make our society better.
The UK is and will remain an open multi-ethnic society - so the challenge for us all is how can we make it work better?
10 March 2008, 06:58 PM
#49
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You haven't watched the programme though, it is about whether Powell was right in the 60s.
Yes we probably are stuck with multi culturalism now, doesn't mean to say we have to be happy about it.
A number of people from the 60s who were for multi culturalism were saying that they had never envisaged it turning out the way it has.
Watch it on iplayer, then you'll have a better understanding.
Yes we probably are stuck with multi culturalism now, doesn't mean to say we have to be happy about it.
A number of people from the 60s who were for multi culturalism were saying that they had never envisaged it turning out the way it has.
Watch it on iplayer, then you'll have a better understanding.
10 March 2008, 07:00 PM
#51
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote:
"I'm not saying it's perfect because it clearly isn't and we have huge challenges to overcome, the problem is we as a nation are not prepared to help make those changes,"
So perhaps if we had listened to Enoch Powell then, we wouldn't have the cahllenges that face us today, that is the whole point!
"I'm not saying it's perfect because it clearly isn't and we have huge challenges to overcome, the problem is we as a nation are not prepared to help make those changes,"
So perhaps if we had listened to Enoch Powell then, we wouldn't have the cahllenges that face us today, that is the whole point!
10 March 2008, 07:12 PM
#52
[QUOTE=Martin2005;7721118]Again thats just conflating issues, are you suggesting that we would have no crime without immigration?
Black crime, White crime, Asian crime, it's all crime and the colour of the perpetrators is irrelevant.
It's nothing to do with 'rose tinted glasses' I live in the real world, not the hysterical and artificial one so easily to believed if you allow yourself to be influenced by our appalling right wing press and other vested interests.
I'm not saying it's perfect because it clearly isn't and we have huge challenges to overcome, the problem is we as a nation are not prepared to help make those changes, if we continue with intollerance how can we intergrate better? If we carry on believing we can turn the clock back to 'a Great Britain' (whatever that means), then we'll never make our society better. [QUOTE]
Indeed Martin the world on a whole is changing. The rabble rousing idiots and criminals are no more a reflection of me or my culture than the far right extremist are of yours. Human nature is such that every community will contain people of varying characteristics good, bad , lazy etc. Immigration in itself is not the problem, a flawed immigration policy is. I think the general consenus within this thread is that limited immigration is a positive thing and can be of beneifit. Uncontrolled immigration with little or no vetting is a recipe for disaster. Perhaps what we need now is strictly adhered to laws whereby if you want to cause trouble you are deported. I can't see any level headed person having an issue with this sort of policy. In short enjoy the benefits and freedoms afforded by this nation but woe betide you if abuse this liberty.
Black crime, White crime, Asian crime, it's all crime and the colour of the perpetrators is irrelevant.
It's nothing to do with 'rose tinted glasses' I live in the real world, not the hysterical and artificial one so easily to believed if you allow yourself to be influenced by our appalling right wing press and other vested interests.
I'm not saying it's perfect because it clearly isn't and we have huge challenges to overcome, the problem is we as a nation are not prepared to help make those changes, if we continue with intollerance how can we intergrate better? If we carry on believing we can turn the clock back to 'a Great Britain' (whatever that means), then we'll never make our society better. [QUOTE]
Indeed Martin the world on a whole is changing. The rabble rousing idiots and criminals are no more a reflection of me or my culture than the far right extremist are of yours. Human nature is such that every community will contain people of varying characteristics good, bad , lazy etc. Immigration in itself is not the problem, a flawed immigration policy is. I think the general consenus within this thread is that limited immigration is a positive thing and can be of beneifit. Uncontrolled immigration with little or no vetting is a recipe for disaster. Perhaps what we need now is strictly adhered to laws whereby if you want to cause trouble you are deported. I can't see any level headed person having an issue with this sort of policy. In short enjoy the benefits and freedoms afforded by this nation but woe betide you if abuse this liberty.
10 March 2008, 07:37 PM
#53
in the sixties when my farther came from jamaica after being asked to do so by the then british government there were rivers of blood! the teddy boys and the rockers used to kick the crap out of each other! in london you had people like the infamous kray twins and others who would kill anyone that got in thier way! then there was the ira that did far more damage with bombings over a thirty year period than has been done in recent years! the only difference today is the propaganda put out by the media and various self intrested parties that have the rest of us distracted from the real issues ie the maner in which all this contries policies are concieved and carried out! lets face it this country and others in the eu built there infastructure on the back of alot of these now immigrants countries mineral wealth and here we all are now 150 years later paying the price for the comonwealth only back then as now its not the comoners with the wealth its the mp's these people are able to isolate themselves from what we have to live with on a daily basis and have a lot to answer for. as a product of multiculturaism i my self think its a good thing the problem as others have said lies with intergration and as long as you have people coming to this country not willing to adopt our culture belief systems or language there will always be problems the two need to learn to co-exist and intagrate with one another not live as a them and us society. we know what the problems are they have been around for decades the thing we should be discussing is how to solve them amacably and without the pc brigade calling anyone who is maybe slightly abrasive in there manner but does actually have a point a racist as they did with enoch powell!!
11 March 2008, 12:47 PM
#54
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think what the programme really showed is that immigration at too high a level creates problems, because once the minority group becomes too large, the whole fabric of the society is changed.
If there was just a small amount of immigration, these people would adapt to the English way of life, as it is, they don't need to because they are basically living in a community of immigrants within England. They don't need to integrate, therefore on the whole they don't.
If there was just a small amount of immigration, these people would adapt to the English way of life, as it is, they don't need to because they are basically living in a community of immigrants within England. They don't need to integrate, therefore on the whole they don't.
Les
11 March 2008, 12:59 PM
#55
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Again thats just conflating issues, are you suggesting that we would have no crime without immigration?
Black crime, White crime, Asian crime, it's all crime and the colour of the perpetrators is irrelevant.
It's nothing to do with 'rose tinted glasses' I live in the real world, not the hysterical and artificial one so easily to believed if you allow yourself to be influenced by our appalling right wing press and other vested interests.
I'm not saying it's perfect because it clearly isn't and we have huge challenges to overcome, the problem is we as a nation are not prepared to help make those changes, if we continue with intollerance how can we intergrate better? If we carry on believing we can turn the clock back to 'a Great Britain' (whatever that means), then we'll never make our society better.
The UK is and will remain an open multi-ethnic society - so the challenge for us all is how can we make it work better?
Black crime, White crime, Asian crime, it's all crime and the colour of the perpetrators is irrelevant.
It's nothing to do with 'rose tinted glasses' I live in the real world, not the hysterical and artificial one so easily to believed if you allow yourself to be influenced by our appalling right wing press and other vested interests.
I'm not saying it's perfect because it clearly isn't and we have huge challenges to overcome, the problem is we as a nation are not prepared to help make those changes, if we continue with intollerance how can we intergrate better? If we carry on believing we can turn the clock back to 'a Great Britain' (whatever that means), then we'll never make our society better.
The UK is and will remain an open multi-ethnic society - so the challenge for us all is how can we make it work better?
Why do you think that all the illegal immigrants want to come to this country?
Is it right that so many people are better off living on benefits than taking the jobs that are being done by immigrants?
Do you think that the right things are being done to alleviate the situation?
How very "NL" you appear to be with your sidestepping of the question and your homilies on how we must all work at this situation but at the same time being unable to tell us how we should achieve it!
Les
11 March 2008, 01:04 PM
#56
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Worthing..
Posts: 7,575
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do you advocate mass immigration on the levels we have seen encouraged by the clowns in charge? Do you think it is right that all the taxes paid in by those who have had full working lives should be given away preferentially to illegal immigrants? Do you think it is right that our education and health services are being overwhelmed for these reasons?
Why do you think that all the illegal immigrants want to come to this country?
Is it right that so many people are better off living on benefits than taking the jobs that are being done by immigrants?
Do you think that the right things are being done to alleviate the situation?
How very "NL" you appear to be with your sidestepping of the question and your homilies on how we must all work at this situation but at the same time being unable to tell us how we should achieve it!
Les
Why do you think that all the illegal immigrants want to come to this country?
Is it right that so many people are better off living on benefits than taking the jobs that are being done by immigrants?
Do you think that the right things are being done to alleviate the situation?
How very "NL" you appear to be with your sidestepping of the question and your homilies on how we must all work at this situation but at the same time being unable to tell us how we should achieve it!
Les
But Les, there is no evidence of any of this happening.
The country has a net gain of £6billion from immigration - So in financial terms we are better of.
11 March 2008, 01:28 PM
#58
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Worthing..
Posts: 7,575
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ill be perfectly happy to look at audited figures that say something to the contrary.
As for the unemployment numbers, Where on earth do you get 9 million from? Unless you are including those under 16 and those that have retired? There are 794,000 people claiming unempolyment benefit - Some way short of your 9 million.
11 March 2008, 01:54 PM
#60
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Les