Bodgit

dont feed him

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

Fair play, so can we at least agree then, that at least the problem of affordable housing isn't down to immigrants? So that is one issue you put forward, that actually is not the fault of them. After all, if we take the view of many on here that they are scroungers/coming for a free ride etc. then they will most likely not own their own house anyway, thus not effecting the buying market.

Paul3446

Quote:
"Due to immigration? You do realise that 94% of the population is British - I mean are you saying that the million or so immigrants (and how many of those go to hospital has pushed the NHS over the edge?"


Where do you get the figure of 1 million immigrants from?

A quick search shows that there were 4.9 million immigrants in the UK in 2001!

There must now be between 6-7 million immigrants here, plus the illegal ones.

So if you think that 6 million extra people make no difference to housing, congestion, schooling, prisons etc. you really aren't on the same planet as the rest of us!

Paul3446

By the way 14% of the prison population are immigrants, but don't tell me, that in some way helps the prison system!

PeteBrant

I assumed you were talking about the illegal immigrants - Not the completely legal ones - You know, the ones that work and contribute to society

Of course you have to offset that with the birth/death rate and the amount of people that leave.

Effectively what you are saying is that the UK population in 2010 will be over 70million (assuming 60million in 2001) - it wont be anywhere near.

You are assuming that immgration of 6 million = population increase of 6million which is not the case.

Paul3446

Quote:
"Fair play, so can we at least agree then, that at least the problem of affordable housing isn't down to immigrants? So that is one issue you put forward, that actually is not the fault of them. "

Hey? Who said that? The first reason I gave was demand outstripping supply, I think if you took away 7 million immigrants I think you would find that problem disappeared overnight and you could buy a house for about £50k like you could 10 years ago!

I'm not blaming them, but it is because of them being here!

Paul3446

Pete you are really missing the point, this thread is about whether Enoch Powell was right. "Illegal" immigrants weren't even invented then! Who's talking about illegals?

Please re-read my post about the 6 million, that is the number of people in the UK that weren't born here, not some projection, they are here now!

Paul3446

Quote:
"
dont feed him "


But the poor sod must be starving!

PeteBrant

Right, and if a similar amount have died/left the country then whats the difference?

Paul3446

OK, I give up!

PeteBrant

Right so at first it was because immigrant were a drain on resources.
Then we debunked that with th efact that Britian is in profit from immigration

Then it was that immirants are drain on resources
But you can't say one way or the other whether there is a net gain on the population from immigration - Or even on the net tax earning population.

Then in,one of possibly the most ridiculous comments I have seen on here, the house price boom was blamed on immigration

I think at its base level, this is some simple minded xenophobic objection to people that weren't born in the UK.

Paul3446

Bodgit

I did warn you. pete is right end of. Look out for future installments of petes work.
I am personally looking forward to "the sky is green and no one can tell me different". That one is sure to be good

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

To be fair to Pete, he is only putting forward his view and backing it up with some amount of information. Yes, his figures may not always be 100% true, but looking at any figures, they usually tend to be biased one way or another depending upon where they are coming from.

At least he is trying to be open minded enough to look at the whole picture, rather than just simply blaming all the country's problems on the arrival of immigrants. I am in no way saying there aren't issues with respect to immigration, but it seems slightly unfair to say the least to blame them for everything.

What really gets to me is the fact that people who try to see things from a less 'black and white' viewpoint, are getting insulted, with the likes of the 'I'm with stupid' banner, and the old faithful, accusation of trolling. I don't really see how resorting to that level, really helps in a bid to have a reasonable discussion.

Maz

iTrader: (34)

Reasonable discussion in NSR?! It's ironic to accuse someone of trolling and then to liberally post smilies.

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

Exactly. I don't know what I was thinking hoping for a reasonable discussion here, but it was worth a go.

Martin2005

Please define immigrants then, are you saying anyone who arrived here or their family in the past 200 years, or have 7 million suddenly arrived?

Martin2005

I know it's terrible when people use facts, rather than just rhetoric

Bodgit

Someone did use facts they found in a search but then just got shot down because they are not the ones pete is looking at.

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

TBF, all that happened, were that his figures were questioned, he hardly got shot down anymore than Pete did for the figures he was using. I don't remember Pete calling anyone, or using slightly unfair smilies or accusing him of trolling. They just had a difference of opinions due to the use of different figures.

Seriously though, why can't anyone have a reasonable discussion without insulting each other because they disagree?

Bodgit

yes, but it seems to be pete is allowed to question other peoples stats and no one is allowed to question his.

it doesnt matter what anyone finds and produces they are not good enough.

Both parties are producing stats to fight their corners. Just like any political party would do. Petes partyjust seems to have more supporters.

Martin2005

Your sole contribution to this thread has been to have a go at someone, hardly constructive is it?

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

I am the supporter of neither side. I have my own views, and will stand by them, but there's nothing wrong with a healthy debate.

If I was a fountain of knowledge and a head full of figures, I'd happily question anyone, certainly Pete included, but I'm not, so I just put across my feelings just like most others. I wouldn't get into a debate about figures with Pete as it stands, as I wouldn't stand a chance. By my own feelings on this matter, I do tend to lean on Pete's way of thinking regardless of whose figures are the most accurate.

I don't think Pete's party as you put it have more supporters at all, in fact he is usually in the minority. As I've said, I have my own views, despite what in fighting is going on here, and if it seems certain people are part of his group, it is only because they have a similar take.

The only issue I have had in this thread, is the fact that insults end up getting thrown around, and I don't see the need for it. It is perfectly possible to disagree and discuss without resorting to that. I have managed to put across my view without insulting anyone, and in fairness, thus far without being insulted back.

PeteBrant

Blimey, when did I rattle your cage?

Look, if some is going to give facts and figures, then you need to link to them - I mean anyone can pull a number out of the hat.

I linked to the fact that the government have said that the UK is £6billion in profit from immigration. Now whether you beleive that or not is up to you - but no one has provided any credible source to say otherwise - All that has been said is "oh the government said it, it must be a lie". Well that doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

I agreed with Pauls figures of 8 million out of work because that is exactly the figure to National statistics site gives. It also gives a figure 1.61 million out of work and 794,00 claiming on the dole - I'm not making these figures up

National Statistics Online

So we have a figure of around 6.5 million of 16-64 year olds out of work. It doesnt take a genuis to see that some of these will be students, some will be unable to work, some will be self sufficient, some will be housewives or husbands and yes, some will be workshy layabouts. What's the ratio of these? I don't know, and I don't claim to know because I don't know the numbers.

With regards to immigration and the effect on the population, we know, from the last census that the population of the UK was just over 59,000,000. And typically this number goes up by around 1-2 million every 10 years. Paul was having us beleive that this number has gone up by 6 million since 2001! It just doesn't work like that.

http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib...9/rp99-111.pdf


I am quite happy to have a sensible debate and be proven wrong, and the likes of Paul Habgood, Les, OllyK, Lisa etc, all of whom have my respect, all manage to have a sensible debate, often from an opposite point of view without resorting to name calling.

Bodgit

A few months back when we were discussing the same sort of thing. I believe we were talking about the disabled in MK.

I got the stats from the MK Council website but as they were different to yours they were just pust to one side as being wrong by you.

I could see the same thing happening again to Paul3446, and it did.

Bodgit

I was hardly having a go at anyone, just putting my view across that you will never get Pete to believe your stats because they are not the same as his.

Just because National Statistics Online says it's the case doesnt mean it is.

Do you remember the panorama episode on immigration in slough. The government said there was no problem there but the investigator clearly found sheds housing people in back gardens, houses with 12 living in them.
They even had school teachers being interviewed saying they could see the problems wit the overcrowding in classrooms.

Now I believe if Pete looked those statistics up online it would show there wasnt an issue. So are we to believe Pete all the time or do the BBC make these things up?

PeteBrant

But Bodgit, surely you can see the difference between audited statistics and a Panarama programme which is at best anecdotal. Of course the programme may highlight some genuine issues but it can hardly be extrapolated to be the nationwide picture.

What other source would you suggest for finding out the number of unemployed people and the number of people claiming benefit?

What other source would you suggest other than the Census for the population of the country?

The Zohan

Pete bless i'm is always right and facts will not get in the way.

He often does have something useful to contribute and is happy playing devils advocate but sadly it is his way or no way.

according to the govenment they do not know how many legal immigrants are here, Some councils claim their services are being to be swamped and cannot cope. Government says it is not a problem.

Illegals, government est. 750,000 it seems like a lot to me. ans all of this 750,000 are law abiding, not using the health care system, etc.

PeteBrant

Hey, I didn't make the rules for debating on the internet - I Just follow 'em

The Zohan

And that is why i love you dearly


Slightly off topic so ingulge me

Pete, out of interest.
On the news yesterday and today there was a piece on a immigrant/migrant camp on the outskirts of Peterborough. 20-30 Eastern Europeans living in tents and shelters constructed out of stuff they found.

It does not sound ideal to me.

Surely we should only allow migrants into the country to existing jobs provided by licenced legitimate agenices from the country of the person(s) origin and the UK. Along with this accommodation to be sorted and/or provided.

TBH
I would be most unhappy as a uk resident having this encampment near me, sanitation, noise, worries over saftey (unfounded or not), etc.

someone is going to have to pauy to clean the site up when they leave and i am sure it will not be the migrants handing over cash as they depart.

Again, it is creating fear and resentment, another badly handled situation.

From a migrant POV it is not a very good deal. However, they are staying so things must be better or the rewards there to make it worhtwhile.