Rivers of blood bbc 2 now
13 March 2008, 12:04 AM
#211
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But Pete Brant will swear you're white, Suresh. He'll argue blue is the new yellow to fit his googled figures.
Suresh, you sure you're not even slightly Turkish, or Kurdish or even Estonian, just so you'll fit in a googled figure?
Suresh, you sure you're not even slightly Turkish, or Kurdish or even Estonian, just so you'll fit in a googled figure?
13 March 2008, 12:10 AM
#213
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How about actually debating the points you disagree with? I'm open to having my opinions challenged and I'll even alter them is I'm convinced.
13 March 2008, 12:14 AM
#215
Right so its the second one then, anyone can attend the school. Good - I was getting a bit worried , then.
Selection due to financial means is one thing, it goes on all the time, but selection based on colour (which is what I thought you were telling me you were doing) is just about the wrongest thing I can think of.
Selection due to financial means is one thing, it goes on all the time, but selection based on colour (which is what I thought you were telling me you were doing) is just about the wrongest thing I can think of.
I'm curious as to why would it bother you though? Are you of colour yourself? Surely you're not a do-gooder? That's just the worst thing I can think of
13 March 2008, 12:16 AM
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I'm white, my kids are mixed race.
13 March 2008, 12:17 AM
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Selection based on colour, gender and religious or sexual orientation goes on all the time. Its illegal of course, but then so are most drugs, but prohibition alone never stopped anything did it? But no need to fret, a lot of us darkies can manage by ourselves. Changing perceptions though actions rather than words is a speciality of mine
I'm curious as to why would it bother you though? Are you of colour yourself? Surely you're not a do-gooder? That's just the worst thing I can think of
I'm curious as to why would it bother you though? Are you of colour yourself? Surely you're not a do-gooder? That's just the worst thing I can think of
13 March 2008, 12:18 AM
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13 March 2008, 12:30 AM
#219
I understand your angle now thanks.
Creating legislation to outlaw racism is never going to change mindsets and that is where the root cause lies. Only positive experiences away from the negative stereotype over a period of time can do that. If the positive experiences are not forth-coming then the prejudice is probably justified. This requires a some self-awareness on the part of the change agent to understand the prejudices.
After all, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it probably is a duck. Quack quack!
This 'change asian' doesn't quack
13 March 2008, 12:37 AM
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Creating legislation to outlaw racism is never going to change mindsets and that is where the root cause lies. Only positive experiences away from the negative stereotype over a period of time can do that. If the positive experiences are not forth-coming then the prejudice is probably justified. This requires a some self-awareness on the part of the change agent to understand the prejudices.
Of course I can see where you are coming from with regards to changing mindsets through positive experiences, and of course in an ideal situation this is what will happen.
Apologies if I missed the point you were making earlier in the thread.
13 March 2008, 12:41 AM
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'Multi-culti' is a failure because of too much live and let live. I am of the opinion that a basic level of integration needs to be forced. If people refuse then they should not be made welcome. A FIFO system if you like. Finally people should remember not to bring the reasons why they left a particular place with them when they immigrate! 
As the son of a immigrant (all hard-working I might add) I can rightfully claim some inside knowledge on the subject. I am well-integrated, but still maintain a degree of my ancestors cultural identity. Its a compromised position of course, but has afforded me all the fantastic opportunities open to the indigenous population.
As the son of a immigrant (all hard-working I might add) I can rightfully claim some inside knowledge on the subject. I am well-integrated, but still maintain a degree of my ancestors cultural identity. Its a compromised position of course, but has afforded me all the fantastic opportunities open to the indigenous population.
been following this off and on. great post suresh. absolutely bang on the nail, especially your last sentence - which i'd say is the universal key to the successful management of immigration.
integration = a core level of understanding and mutual tolerance. without integration you get multi-culturalism, which is, as any fule know (bar the once-again-proven-wrong, goggle-eyed lefties among us) is the thin end of the ghetto wedge. and ghettoisation = cultural, social and political disconnection between immigrant and host. the results of which we are now starting to endure.
one day the choice of (mostly dogmatic) pillocks we have to elect will get it right - but at what cost i don't know.
Last edited by Holy Ghost; 13 March 2008 at 12:44 AM.
13 March 2008, 12:46 AM
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been following this off and on. great post suresh. absolutely bang on the nail, especially your last sentence - which i'd say is the universal key to the successful management of immigration.
integration = a core level of understanding and mutual tolerance. without integration you get multi-culturalism, which is, as any fule know (bar the once-again-proven-wrong, goggle-eyed left-of-centre-brigade) is the thin end of the ghetto wedge. and ghettoisation = cultural, social and political disconnection between immigrant and host. the results of which we are now starting to endure.
one day the choice of pillocks we have to elect will get it right - but at what cost i don't know.
been following this off and on. great post suresh. absolutely bang on the nail, especially your last sentence - which i'd say is the universal key to the successful management of immigration.
integration = a core level of understanding and mutual tolerance. without integration you get multi-culturalism, which is, as any fule know (bar the once-again-proven-wrong, goggle-eyed left-of-centre-brigade) is the thin end of the ghetto wedge. and ghettoisation = cultural, social and political disconnection between immigrant and host. the results of which we are now starting to endure.
one day the choice of pillocks we have to elect will get it right - but at what cost i don't know.
I think there are steps being takien in this direction by the Government. What with citizenship tests and the like. Whether you think it is too little is of course another matter, but I think the points you raise are certainly recognised at some level.
13 March 2008, 01:04 AM
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13 March 2008, 02:26 AM
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really? i think you mistake this merely for lip-service PB, based on fear of electoral failure rather than a genuine recognition that - once again - left-of-centre dogma and stillborn attempts at social engineering have proved hopelessly mistaken. as if it wasn't patently obvious to any well-balanced individual already. for decades.
ergo it is too little. but not too late. i am an optimist, albeit a long-term one. it will take a long time to rebuild old bridges - and create new ones. which is what must be done - but categorically not through the rank, utter stupidity of multi-cultural apartheid.
how many times can these cretinous people deny the common sense of the bleeding obvious? many times, as has been proven. until they are voted out. but that - in the absence of anything yet approaching a genuine, trustworthy alternative - is another thread. depressingly.
gordon brown believes himself to be a serious thinker who can see the big picture. he's not and he doesn't. he's just another intellectually crippled, one-eyed lefty tosser in a government of the congenitally blind.
i hope the c**t falls down an uncovered manhole.
Last edited by Holy Ghost; 13 March 2008 at 02:37 AM.
13 March 2008, 09:39 AM
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really? i think you mistake this merely for lip-service PB, based on fear of electoral failure rather than a genuine recognition that - once again - left-of-centre dogma and stillborn attempts at social engineering have proved hopelessly mistaken. as if it wasn't patently obvious to any well-balanced individual already. for decades.
really? i think you mistake this merely for lip-service PB, based on fear of electoral failure rather than a genuine recognition that - once again - left-of-centre dogma and stillborn attempts at social engineering have proved hopelessly mistaken. as if it wasn't patently obvious to any well-balanced individual already. for decades.
I don't think it's lip service. Of course policies in Government are to a certain extent affected by the feeling amongst the public, and of course there was/is a fairly vocal section with regards to immigration. To this end a non-eu ctizen now has to take a citizenship test, and obviously they are looking in the future to oaths of fealty etc.
Is it genuinely quite difficult now for a non EU citizen to immigrate to this country.
EU immigration is a different matter entirely, and unless you are going to pull out of the EU (which is not going to happen) then is it somewhat more difficult to restrict free trade and movement of people.
You aren't going to convince me that right of centre politics, as a whole, is a more attractive proposition that left of centre, any more than I am going to convince you of the reverse, so we are probably better off leaving the political side out of it and focus more on the questions of ghettoisation that you raise.
With this we need to bear in mind that no matter what party get in, Immigration from the EU and outside it will continue.
I am not sure how you force people to integrate to a complete level. By that I mean not having areas which become almost exclusively people of that culture. You can't force people to live in a certain area.
13 March 2008, 09:44 AM
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really? i think you mistake this merely for lip-service PB, based on fear of electoral failure rather than a genuine recognition that - once again - left-of-centre dogma and stillborn attempts at social engineering have proved hopelessly mistaken. as if it wasn't patently obvious to any well-balanced individual already. for decades.
ergo it is too little. but not too late. i am an optimist, albeit a long-term one. it will take a long time to rebuild old bridges - and create new ones. which is what must be done - but categorically not through the rank, utter stupidity of multi-cultural apartheid.
how many times can these cretinous people deny the common sense of the bleeding obvious? many times, as has been proven. until they are voted out. but that - in the absence of anything yet approaching a genuine, trustworthy alternative - is another thread. depressingly.
gordon brown believes himself to be a serious thinker who can see the big picture. he's not and he doesn't. he's just another intellectually crippled, one-eyed lefty tosser in a government of the congenitally blind.
i hope the c**t falls down an uncovered manhole.
really? i think you mistake this merely for lip-service PB, based on fear of electoral failure rather than a genuine recognition that - once again - left-of-centre dogma and stillborn attempts at social engineering have proved hopelessly mistaken. as if it wasn't patently obvious to any well-balanced individual already. for decades.
ergo it is too little. but not too late. i am an optimist, albeit a long-term one. it will take a long time to rebuild old bridges - and create new ones. which is what must be done - but categorically not through the rank, utter stupidity of multi-cultural apartheid.
how many times can these cretinous people deny the common sense of the bleeding obvious? many times, as has been proven. until they are voted out. but that - in the absence of anything yet approaching a genuine, trustworthy alternative - is another thread. depressingly.
gordon brown believes himself to be a serious thinker who can see the big picture. he's not and he doesn't. he's just another intellectually crippled, one-eyed lefty tosser in a government of the congenitally blind.
i hope the c**t falls down an uncovered manhole.
PB - If you think this is wrong or not representative of the views of a majority of the decent people of this country then you deluding yourself matey.
Last edited by The Zohan; 13 March 2008 at 10:51 AM.
13 March 2008, 10:38 AM
#229
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really? i think you mistake this merely for lip-service PB, based on fear of electoral failure rather than a genuine recognition that - once again - left-of-centre dogma and stillborn attempts at social engineering have proved hopelessly mistaken. as if it wasn't patently obvious to any well-balanced individual already. for decades.
ergo it is too little. but not too late. i am an optimist, albeit a long-term one. it will take a long time to rebuild old bridges - and create new ones. which is what must be done - but categorically not through the rank, utter stupidity of multi-cultural apartheid.
how many times can these cretinous people deny the common sense of the bleeding obvious? many times, as has been proven. until they are voted out. but that - in the absence of anything yet approaching a genuine, trustworthy alternative - is another thread. depressingly.
gordon brown believes himself to be a serious thinker who can see the big picture. he's not and he doesn't. he's just another intellectually crippled, one-eyed lefty tosser in a government of the congenitally blind.
i hope the c**t falls down an uncovered manhole.
really? i think you mistake this merely for lip-service PB, based on fear of electoral failure rather than a genuine recognition that - once again - left-of-centre dogma and stillborn attempts at social engineering have proved hopelessly mistaken. as if it wasn't patently obvious to any well-balanced individual already. for decades.
ergo it is too little. but not too late. i am an optimist, albeit a long-term one. it will take a long time to rebuild old bridges - and create new ones. which is what must be done - but categorically not through the rank, utter stupidity of multi-cultural apartheid.
how many times can these cretinous people deny the common sense of the bleeding obvious? many times, as has been proven. until they are voted out. but that - in the absence of anything yet approaching a genuine, trustworthy alternative - is another thread. depressingly.
gordon brown believes himself to be a serious thinker who can see the big picture. he's not and he doesn't. he's just another intellectually crippled, one-eyed lefty tosser in a government of the congenitally blind.
i hope the c**t falls down an uncovered manhole.
Dave
13 March 2008, 12:56 PM
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really? i think you mistake this merely for lip-service PB, based on fear of electoral failure rather than a genuine recognition that - once again - left-of-centre dogma and stillborn attempts at social engineering have proved hopelessly mistaken. as if it wasn't patently obvious to any well-balanced individual already. for decades.
ergo it is too little. but not too late. i am an optimist, albeit a long-term one. it will take a long time to rebuild old bridges - and create new ones. which is what must be done - but categorically not through the rank, utter stupidity of multi-cultural apartheid.
how many times can these cretinous people deny the common sense of the bleeding obvious? many times, as has been proven. until they are voted out. but that - in the absence of anything yet approaching a genuine, trustworthy alternative - is another thread. depressingly.
gordon brown believes himself to be a serious thinker who can see the big picture. he's not and he doesn't. he's just another intellectually crippled, one-eyed lefty tosser in a government of the congenitally blind.
i hope the c**t falls down an uncovered manhole.
really? i think you mistake this merely for lip-service PB, based on fear of electoral failure rather than a genuine recognition that - once again - left-of-centre dogma and stillborn attempts at social engineering have proved hopelessly mistaken. as if it wasn't patently obvious to any well-balanced individual already. for decades.
ergo it is too little. but not too late. i am an optimist, albeit a long-term one. it will take a long time to rebuild old bridges - and create new ones. which is what must be done - but categorically not through the rank, utter stupidity of multi-cultural apartheid.
how many times can these cretinous people deny the common sense of the bleeding obvious? many times, as has been proven. until they are voted out. but that - in the absence of anything yet approaching a genuine, trustworthy alternative - is another thread. depressingly.
gordon brown believes himself to be a serious thinker who can see the big picture. he's not and he doesn't. he's just another intellectually crippled, one-eyed lefty tosser in a government of the congenitally blind.
i hope the c**t falls down an uncovered manhole.
Les
13 March 2008, 01:02 PM
#231
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I can point you to forums equally as large as this one where you would be a minority.
Plus of course, the Tories tried to get in on an anti-immigration/anti europe ticket twice and got absolutely hammered, twice.
But of course, majorities and minoritys don't validate a point of view.
13 March 2008, 01:46 PM
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I think you will find the UK a different place to the last election.
Lot of people now wised up to our immigration and multicutural failings and sick of the EU telling us who we should let in and not being able to get rid of those whom we wish to.
I do not think the Tories will get in on just this, People are sick of NL, Blair, Brown and the rest of his clowns who have not exactly exceled or endeared themselves to the people of this country after 12 years they still try to blame the tories or it is never thier fault is it.
I wonder just how many people will vote Labour and also admiit to it this time around.
I am sure the Toires are not supermen or superwomen but TBH they do not need to be, just better than NL would be a step in the right direction and not too difficult to aim at either.
NL seem to be producing some great soundbites and sticking plasters to fix our ills at the moment, not too sure how .50p on a bottle of cider is going to prevent a group of chavs clubbing together to buy it exactly.
Not to sure how they are going to be tough on crime when they are looking at ways of reducing custodial sentences for offences like theift, claiming drug dependancy is a mitigating factor either. That is all about reducing the prison population and not tackling the causes - sticking plaster policies created by uncaring self-serving ***** imho
Labout will get voted out come what may, the tories will likely succeed them and if they do not get it right then we are pretty much doomed!
Lot of people now wised up to our immigration and multicutural failings and sick of the EU telling us who we should let in and not being able to get rid of those whom we wish to.
I do not think the Tories will get in on just this, People are sick of NL, Blair, Brown and the rest of his clowns who have not exactly exceled or endeared themselves to the people of this country after 12 years they still try to blame the tories or it is never thier fault is it.
I wonder just how many people will vote Labour and also admiit to it this time around.
I am sure the Toires are not supermen or superwomen but TBH they do not need to be, just better than NL would be a step in the right direction and not too difficult to aim at either.
NL seem to be producing some great soundbites and sticking plasters to fix our ills at the moment, not too sure how .50p on a bottle of cider is going to prevent a group of chavs clubbing together to buy it exactly.
Not to sure how they are going to be tough on crime when they are looking at ways of reducing custodial sentences for offences like theift, claiming drug dependancy is a mitigating factor either. That is all about reducing the prison population and not tackling the causes - sticking plaster policies created by uncaring self-serving ***** imho
Labout will get voted out come what may, the tories will likely succeed them and if they do not get it right then we are pretty much doomed!
13 March 2008, 01:57 PM
#233
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I dont know that they will - It might be a hung Parliament. The difference is that in the 97/2001 victories, the Tories were in virtual meltdown, and the entire part itself was in danger of splitting.
It was detailed superbly in Portillos "The Thatcher Years" on BBC4.
He tried to convince Hague not to go down the "save the pound" route, and as a result after the 2001 defeat, Hague and Portillo didn't speak for 7 years.
There was a massive resistance to change within the Tory party, in 2005 they had a real chance to modernise but Howard resisted and went back to the "anti immigration" stance the Tories had taken so disasterously in 2001.
And this is where Cameron comes in, he is a modernising force, and you will find he is desperately trying to keep the party in the centre and away from the right which has caused them so much damage - Exactly as Blair did with the Labour left in the 90's.
Of course the difference is this time that you don't have a Governemnt intent on self destruction as you did with the Tories in '97 - So I think the next GE will be a very close fought thing.
I would actually quite welcome a hung parliament and some real consensus politics, rather than the situation we have had since 1979 where the Government can effectively do what it likes.
13 March 2008, 02:34 PM
#234
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I dont know that they will - It might be a hung Parliament. The difference is that in the 97/2001 victories, the Tories were in virtual meltdown, and the entire part itself was in danger of splitting.
It was detailed superbly in Portillos "The Thatcher Years" on BBC4.
He tried to convince Hague not to go down the "save the pound" route, and as a result after the 2001 defeat, Hague and Portillo didn't speak for 7 years.
There was a massive resistance to change within the Tory party, in 2005 they had a real chance to modernise but Howard resisted and went back to the "anti immigration" stance the Tories had taken so disasterously in 2001.
And this is where Cameron comes in, he is a modernising force, and you will find he is desperately trying to keep the party in the centre and away from the right which has caused them so much damage - Exactly as Blair did with the Labour left in the 90's.
Of course the difference is this time that you don't have a Governemnt intent on self destruction as you did with the Tories in '97 - So I think the next GE will be a very close fought thing.
I would actually quite welcome a hung parliament and some real consensus politics, rather than the situation we have had since 1979 where the Government can effectively do what it likes.
It was detailed superbly in Portillos "The Thatcher Years" on BBC4.
He tried to convince Hague not to go down the "save the pound" route, and as a result after the 2001 defeat, Hague and Portillo didn't speak for 7 years.
There was a massive resistance to change within the Tory party, in 2005 they had a real chance to modernise but Howard resisted and went back to the "anti immigration" stance the Tories had taken so disasterously in 2001.
And this is where Cameron comes in, he is a modernising force, and you will find he is desperately trying to keep the party in the centre and away from the right which has caused them so much damage - Exactly as Blair did with the Labour left in the 90's.
Of course the difference is this time that you don't have a Governemnt intent on self destruction as you did with the Tories in '97 - So I think the next GE will be a very close fought thing.
I would actually quite welcome a hung parliament and some real consensus politics, rather than the situation we have had since 1979 where the Government can effectively do what it likes.
1. 12 years is too long for any government to be in power, and recent announcements and policy ideas show they have completely run out of steam. I believe that the first 8 years of this government were really positive, not a popular view on here of course, but in the real world , 'we never had it so good'.
2. I like Cameron, as a huge fan of Blair I see the same qualities, the Tory party needed to change, it needed to do what Blair did to the Labour Party, move into the centre. I know a lot of you on here what a more right wing Tory agenda, but that's tried and failed at the last 3 elections; you cannot win an election from the right or left in this country (there just isn't enough votes on either extreme).
As for the Conservatives winning the next election, I don't know, the math isn't good for them, the electorial map is scewed against them, and therefore it would take a huge swing for this to happen. Still if Brown carries on in the same way anything is possible.
If the Tories do win the next election I really hope they drive through the genuine and wide reaching public sector reforms we desparately need, this in my view has been a biggest disappointment of Labour's time in office.
13 March 2008, 02:45 PM
#235
I will not deny that I'm no political expert, but I think my vote will be with the Tories in the next election. I am not convinced they will make things any better, but I would give them a go, purely because I hate the shower that is in power now.
It would be refreshing to have a government in power who would best serve those who gave them that power in the first place. Whether this will happen is anyones guess.
It would be refreshing to have a government in power who would best serve those who gave them that power in the first place. Whether this will happen is anyones guess.
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