EMS

If you raise boost on a MY01, without adjusting fuel, the A/F ratio will become VERY RICH. See: http://dyno.scoobynet.co.uk/WLuk/billy_wain.htm

The big dip in the curve is caused by the very rich mixture.

The only way to do a proper MY01 conversion is to change also the fueling (and ignition timing). I know, because I was working for about 6 month to have a proper conversion, with Unichip and home made MAP converter.

Mark Verhoeven.

NBW

Strikes me that Prodrive should be employing you, Dr Banks, on a consultancy basis, so that we can all get our cars PPP'd for a tenner. OK, may be 25 quid.

Cheers
Tim

PS Reminds me of about 13 years ago, when Joe Public didn't know much about PC's and I worked for a big name company that used to buy in 20MB hard disks for a £100 and knock them out for £350.

[Edited by NBW - 1/25/2002 7:03:11 PM]

[Edited by NBW - 1/25/2002 7:10:04 PM]

[Edited by NBW - 1/25/2002 7:11:28 PM]

john banks

Interesting Mark. This would add weight to our demands for a "proper" remap on the MY01 - esp at the price and given they managed it with the old shape. I had heard that this technique works better on the old shape than the new shape so it seems a strange method for Prodrive to use. Has anyone else looked at the fuelling of a MY01 PPP? (except Prodrive of course...)

BTW, what a truly horrid dyno plot...

[Edited by john banks - 1/25/2002 7:13:17 PM]

EvilBevel

NBW, 25 quid seems a bit silly, after all people do have to do research, and a good solution is a good solution, no matter what it actually costs in components (I'm in IT, and my brains cost me nothing, I still charge a lot of money though ) Hardware is obsolete anyway, it's the thinking that earns you money.

That said ...

I still think the warranty bit is important, but I also heard that the MY01 ECU fights upped boost (or altered MAP signals) with squirting in ridiculous amounts of fuel (from an unnamed Subaru dealer, this information)...

Am I missing something here ?

Theo

PSI3

John, i don't know if you saw my post recently, if not here it is...

"Prior to PPP my Defi gauge used to peak at about 1.3 kgf/cm2 now after PPP peak boost is 1.0 kgf/cm2, is this normal for the MY01 PPP to produce less boost, car is quicker but curious why less boost."

Any comments,

Also if you require any help with PCB's or SMT components/assembly drop me a line.

simon



[Edited by PCB - 1/25/2002 7:59:08 PM]

john banks

Don't know the answer.

I'll email you about SMT.

CraigH

So if the MY01 is almost perfect regarding fuelling and ignition, how come it's possible to get such superb results with a unichip.

2 facts and I hope neither owner minds me commenting.

UK300, PPP, full S/S decat exhaust/up pipe, APS induction kit - 288hp/270lb ft at 4k.

MY01, APS 206kw kit (with CAT in exhaust) 287hp/270lb ft @ 3050rpm.
Now that is a driveable car.

I've heard the same regarding these upgrades. As to the R&D justifying the £1600ish cost as opposed to £400is for Superchips, who knows.

john banks

Interesting results Craig. Prodrive might suggest the Unichip car is eating into its safety margin by running leaner and with too much advance.

Mike Wood emailed me (and I don't want to start cutting and pasting his emails into the thread as he has not given his permission for this) saying that the ignition and fuelling of the car is not altered because the standard ECU tries to run maximum advance all the time based on the knock sensor and a rich car controls temperatures, saying that more power could be extracted by leaning it out but this was not suitable for a car expected to cover high mileages.

But surely a "proper" map (even a "one size fits all" like the old PPP) is better than relying on the original mapping and fooling the MAP input for safety, performance AND emissions?

Prodrive suggest that the MY01 ECU is really very clever indeed and none of this is required. Why then does the new car not produce substantially more power and torque for the same boost as the old one?

[Edited by john banks - 1/25/2002 10:13:41 PM]

simes

Now I'm confused, why should the Superchip dyno plot look so horrible whilst PPP ones don't if they don't adjust the fuelling?

Or is it that the Superchip doesn't adjust for RPM?

Cheers

Simon

john banks

Superchips don't adjust for RPM. It is the equivalent to putting a relief valve before your MAP sensor - it is a dumb device.

Perhaps if you are careful where you add the boost the ECU doesn't do silly things. Prodrive say the RPM method allows them to achieve what they wanted and the ECU behaved appropriately.

simes

So if one were to get, say, the Apex Boost Controller and set it up sensibly it should produce a nice flat torque curve...or alternatively persuade you to make up one of your 10 quid jobs

john banks

If you set it up optimally the torque curve would not be completely flat. But it would be a lot wider and higher than standard. Depends on how you want your car. You can have a flat boost and torque curve if you want, but on a TD04L you need it pretty low in the midrange to still stay as high at the top end. If you do it makes it feel like a good old 16 valve GTi with a fair bit of extra power if you say run 14PSI as early as you can and hold it until over 6000rpm. Good reward for going up the revs. But why not use all that extra midrange where it is safe to do so and the turbo is most efficient. That is really what the PPPs are doing. Feels comparatively flat at the top end, but overall the area under the torque curve is far superior. That is why everyone is raving about the Dawes even at standard boost. The only real issue with it is part throttle EGTs.

simes

To be honest John, that is what I am trying to get to, i.e. the lovely torquey feel to it my MY99 had after PPP.

Actually I test drove a PPP'd MY01 and wasn't overly impressed. Instead I spent a fraction of the cost on a Scoobysport decat d/p and c/s (already having a Prodrive B/B). The car now feels IMO at least as lively as the PPP'd one I drove.

Hence my interest in threads such as these, I am trying to get my head around the technical issues (but still feel a complete numptie compared to people like you) so that I can make a reasoned decision that gives me what I want safely - given that I am going to be blowing my warranty out of the water...

This is also the reason I am asking lots of questions about EGT etc...I chose not to have the up-pipe done as by keeping it the car remains legal for emissions tests. So I am a bit scared about mods that may damage the up-pipe cat. I don't really want to fit the up-pipe and put a sports cat in c/s as that starts to cost money I was trying to avoid spending in the first place...

I would look at your DIY EBC but unfortunately I struggle to wire a plug...

Thanks for answering my questions, I dare say I'll have more in due course

Cheers

Simon

Chins

Craig & Mike

Craig posted

I've heard the same regarding these upgrades. As to the R&D justifying the £1600ish cost as opposed to £400is for Superchips, who knows.

Mike posted

My understanding was that they were all as you describe? What makes you think that 99.00MY was a "proper" remap?

--------------------------------------------------------------

As suppliers to this industry, you really should do some more research before posting on this. Before questioning other suppliers, why not pick up the phone. Its not nice when people post incorrect info about your respected companies. Thought you might be above trying this.

The MY01 whilst not the best PPP ever to come out would be pretty hard for even Superchips to supply for £400.

Centre & Rear Exhaust
Intercooler Pipework
ECU mods
3 Year Warranty

Its also being done £400 cheaper than the MY99/00. As John pointed out its been known not to be a full remap for over 8 months, and we had a thread on it that long ago.

If any other supplier is happy to do a similar or better conversion for the same money, and give a full 3 year warranty Ive missed them. You also need to remember that come resale time you will get more money for a PPP car than std. Cars with other mods seem to need stripping before they can be sold.

I'm sure all Scoobynetters are looking forward to some other fully warranted offerings.

Jonathan

Dave T-S

Chucking another juggling ball into the air, the MY01 Link is finally about to be in production. It will be interesting to see what this achieves in comparison to the std ECU/PPP/Unichip when the first one is fitted and rolling roaded.....

firefox

Interesting stuff.

HKS and Apexi (and probably others) have had RPM based EBC's available for quite a while (years). I ran a HKS EVC on my car that allowed the boost curved to be based on RPM or TPS.

HKS also has the FCD (fuel cut defender) that moves the fuel cut point, and doesnt just eliminate it.

I tried all these in my early days before using replacement ECU's.

Worked quite well

J.

Pete Croney

I've also been reading this with interest.

We have known about the PPP since they were released. When testing the saftey of exhaust combinations with it, we found that the ECU is never seeing more than 10psi, although the boost guage shows 18psi (1.2 bar).

If I get a chance, I'll graph the boost curve with the rpm curve and see what readings it gives. The Select Monitor lets you do this. The information may be of no use, as we don't know if the signal conversion is offset or scalar or even a combination of both. Datalogging gauges would be better, anyone got a Defi rpm gauge and boost gauge set up?

john banks

Even from the diagnostics point of view you would want the select monitor to report the true boost I would have thought. Otherwise the dealer would have to guess (!) or hook up an traditional boost gauge?

EMS

Pete,

You can datalogging the gauges with a video camera. (rev counter and boost gauge the same time) Works just fine!

(I am quite interested in the boost figures of the MY01 PPP)

Mark Verhoeven.

[Edited by EMS - 1/26/2002 1:00:15 PM]