djmisio85

I was just using that as an example of how fast normal road-going cars can be.
Obviously f1 isnt about 0-30 times, but its still a starting point.

Would be cool to have a video of an f1 car and a group b car racing on a track, which is relatively interesting, without too many long straights where the f1 car would take advantage

Dracoro

Interesting in what way? The F1 would absolutely obliterate the rally car, moreso on the corners than the straights too! The cornering speeds of an F1 are amazing.

CrisPDuk

A good description, but not completely accurate

The Sport Quattros weren't created by merely chopping 1' from a coupe's wheelbase The engineers took the opportunity to address another of the drivers' major complaint's, i.e; the slope windscreen of the windscreen hampered their ability to accurately judge the car's position on the road.

The solution was to take a shortened rear portion of the coupe and weld it to the front of an 80 Sport, which had a much more steeply raked windscreen, in effect a factory sanctioned cut 'n' shut

Additionally, to counter the weight of the engine over the nose, quite a lot of effort went into moving as many ancillaries to the boot as they could, to the extent that the radiator ended up in the rear spoiler!

wall

The group B cars had absolutely mad power but were really not that fast, as suspension, transmission, brake and aero technologies were relatively "primitive".

Therefore handling, cornering, stability and braking performance was well below todays' rally cars, amounting to overall far slower times despite the abundance of power.

In fact the "madness" of group B, the spectacular out-of-control footage, was really a product of big power on cars with relatively mediocre performance in all other areas of driveability (by todays' racing standards).

In a twisty track a modern WRC car would be faster than a group B due to the massive advantage in all performance areas except outright power. An F1 is in another league again. Even back then the famous "only a few seconds slower than F1" lap of Estoril was done in dry conditions whilst the F1s qualified in torrential rain...

Group B was an amazingly challenging, and ultimately mad, blend of early '80 relatively "primitive" suspension, transmission, brake and aero technologies, combined with ridiculous power outputs and very un-linear delivery of those outputs.

This insane mix was then to be driven down narrow slippery lanes with trees and cliffs on the sides ..... totally mad and intoxicating (to watch). I loved it but it was certainly crazy.

Technology advanced so fast in regards to transmission, suspension, tires, brakes, aero, etc, that by the early '90 rally cars with 250-300hp were already faster over any given stage that the group Bs had been just a few years before.

mg driver

f1 car versus rally car ,absolutely no competiton
remember this from top gear

YouTube - T r o j a n â„¢ - Ford Cougar vs Ford Focus (WRC) vs Formula 1

davyboy

I was watching F1 on Sunday and the cars generate 4G during fast corners!

If you could get a rally car to do 2g and have warp speed acceleration....then we might have a race.

scoobian

no competition!
WRC would win EVERY time!!!

.........on a rally stage of course

Edcase

Damn I was about to go and find that link

I can't believe people are seriously suggesting that a rally car, group b or not, could match an F1 car on a race circuit!!!

An F1 car can do 0-100-0 in arround 6 seconds and pull more than 4.5 lateral G!!! Just look at that video again and see the aerial shot at the end where they all come out of the complex onto the straight, and see how the F1 car exits the bend and accelerates like a controlled explosion!

rossi_p

iTrader: (26)

I think Clarkson (on one of his programs (TG, Motorworld or something)) did a comparison at Silverstone.

It has Clarkson in a road car.
McRae in a Focus WRC car.
Think Johnny Herbert in a then F1 car (maybe the old Benetton).

They started in staggered time splits, Clarkson something like 45 secs before McRae who was 45 secs in front of Herbert (not sure on times as was an old program) and naturally Herbert overtook them both as the F1 cars are supreme in every way on track.

If we're looking at Group B cars, the Audi Quattro couldn't even beat a road going Fq320 round the TG test track (episode from a recent series). If it can't beat a modern road car, how is a Group B car going to be quicker than an F1 car.....???

Edcase

Tell me this is a joke?

mate, check the link in my post directly above...

rossi_p

iTrader: (26)

Sorry dude.... didn't read whole thread... I get bored easy.

djmisio85

You got any links to this video? audi quattro vs fq320?
All I could find was this 5th gear video - audi quattro vs evo 6gsr
YouTube - Fifth Gear - Audi Sport Quattro VS Mitsubishi EVO VI
hope you dont mean this one........
Both these cars are circa 300bhp, which you simply cannot compare to a 650bhp group b audi for example....

I say put both cars (f1 and group b) on an interesting tarmac track, as I said before without massive long straights, and with a few hairpins, and the results could be quite interesting....

slim_boy_fat

No the real joke is that some people on here (who are supposed car nuts) seriously think a rally car would whip an F1 car on a circuit.

The Group B cars were very fast 0-100, as much to do with traction and gearing as powr and weight, they were only geared to do about 110mph maybe 120 max.

I would be surprised if any road based car could even beat a 1960's GP car let alone a 1980's one.

Sennas car would be around 1000bhp in qually trim and weigh 550kgs with him in it produce +4g in the corners.

Edcase

Sorry mate, it just won't!

Look at the times for the hillclimb at festival of speed. It's more like a tarmac rally stage...it's a driveway for gods sake! Yet the F1 car's still blitz all comers. Only thing that ever came close was a pikes peak car rocking about 1000bhp.

On a track it would just be laughable.

Skoobie Dhu

iTrader: (3)

[QUOTE=marke8;7758915]where did the myth start from that a s4 in 86 went around estoril 2 seconds slower than sennas qualifing time.
[QUOTE]

The 'myth' was spread by the BBC commentator who did all the rallying commentry - think it was tony jardine in 86. I remember watching the footage on the BBC when he said it. I was sure he said the second row of the f1 grid but it was 22 years ago..

marke8

cant beleive some people think it would be a good race between a rally car and a f1.
ive seen the footage of mcrae in a wrc focus which would be a lot quicker than a gp b car do a lap of silverstone at the same time as a f1.i would of said had a race against a f1 but it wasnt a race.the f1 was doing double the speed.

djmisio85

I still think silverstone is far too wide and suited for an F1 car to have a fair comparison.
How about finding a middle ground between the conditions an F1 was designed for and what a rally car was designed for.....

Ie. a narrowish track, with some straights, hairpins, a track where acceleration, not just top speed is needed.

Surely everyone has seen what the group b cars and present day rally cars are capable of on very narrow, low grip courses. to be honest i cant see an F1 car doing too well through consecutive hairpins, even though these cars are meant to be the pinnacle of motorsport...

Il admit, i havnt seen the times etc of modern rally cars and group b cars, but say for example at silverstone, i cant see a wrc focus doing too well against the likes of an Audi s1 with over 600bhp.......

davyboy

You're trying to move the goal posts a little.

Take Monaco GP track for expample....tight and twisty, very narrow.

Here is some data for you:
85 brabham f1 car, 900 hp, 540 kg
85 lancia S4, 643hp, 970 kg

Now factor in COG, downforce etc.

slim_boy_fat

Surely you have no understanding of how a car works, see Davyboys post above.

Edcase

Mate, give it up, you're on a hiding to nothing!

Have you been to Goodwood? The F1 car barely fits as its so narrow, has to run at the highest suspension because of the bumps etc. yet it still creams the WRC and Grp B cars.

marke8

YouTube - f3000 uphill on mountain roads

for the people who think a rally car stands even the remotest chance against a f1 check this.i know these are f3000 but its along the right track.
bloody nutters

CrisPDuk

Absolutely amazing, even by SN standards


50 posts of absolute bullsh!t

40 off them after the question has already been correctly answered


Do the maths yourselves, I can't be bothered

Edcase

51

DCR59

An F1 car has approx 750bhp and weighs 600kg with driver. Power to weight = 1270 bhp/tonne

A Moto GP bike has 250bhp and weight 210 kg with rider. Power to weight = 1210 bhp/tonne.

I've not looked up exact figures for this, but I'm not far away.
So not too much difference then.

But take them to the same track, like last weekend at Sepang, and the F1 car laps in 1min 35sec or something.
A Moto GP bike is over 2 minutes.
And that's the difference the huge downforce of an F1 car makes.



Incidently back in the 80's Audi made an advert for the road quattro showing it taking part in a Grand Prix from the 1950's. The GP footage was in black & white, but the quattro was in mars red.
It made out the quattro was quicker than a 50's F1 car.

However "CAR" magazine picked up on this and tested a quattro with a genuine 50's F1 car. It wasn't even close and the old F1 car easily won.

Billgtt

YouTube - Bruno Ianello tribute

That's so slow (even for a 1985 car) that it makes my milkman's company vehicle look quick

dunx

iTrader: (3)

I'm old so forgive me...

My favourite factoid is :-

Group N Sierra Cosworth at Oliver's mount in Scarborough, Vmax 145 mph to the flying finish line !

Group A Sierra Cosworth same place hard on the limiter at 125 mph !

Sorry to move slightly off thread !

I loved the pop-bang Quattros in the North Yorkshire forests way back !

DunxC

DCR59

I hadn't seen that video before, but you can clearly hear the whine from the supercharger before the turbo took over and it turned into a roar.

I was only a teenager back in the group b era, but I went with my older brother and some of our friends in an old Cavalier and a Manta driving all over the country following the RAC rally.
4 nights sleeping in cars
I remember our folks giving us money so we would stay in b&b's and eat proper meals. Yeah sure. That was petrol money, take aways and beer.

I remember the Lancia and Peugeot was so quiet compared with the quattro's and 6R4's.

Great times, and I'm glad I was there to see them.

djmisio85

Ok guys, I admit defeat. Before seeing this video, I thought rally drivers where the ballsiest, craziest drivers, but this video has made me see the light.
That driving is simply amazing , including a few off road moments....In an f3000

Oh well, so what do you think about a group b vs a modern rally car then guys? on a track like silverstone?

wall

Modern rally car anytime. The suspension, tires, braking, transmission and aero technology has moved so far that a group B would only win if there are massive straights where to deploy it's additional power ... assuming it's geared for very high top speed and that it's areodinamically controllable at that speed.

CrisPDuk

51 posts in total, -1 post containing the correct answer = 50 posts full of ****