J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

You havent me J4ckos mate have you....

Paul3446

Ah, now I understand! So immigrants boost the economy by £6bn, but because they raise the number of people in the country, that amount is counteracted by the additional people, meaning we are no better or worse off.

A completely separate issue is the cost to public services, which as has been pointed out, is nothing to do with the above figures.

So when you add the huge cost to public services of all the immigrants and add that to the amount generated by them being here per capita, (ie: pretty much nothing) you have the true cost of immigration to the country?

PeteBrant

Spot on
Agreed
Quantify "huge" cost.

An immigrant is goign to be no more, or less likely to use public services than anyone else, on the whole. And given that they pay as much in tax than anyone else, then you can also say that the effect on the balance sheet for services is also zero.

In fact, it will be slightly positive because people don't come over here to retire, generally, so they won't be claiming and pension etc.

PeteBrant

What the argument is, Paul, is that this report says that we should be using a per capita amount as a measure as to whether immigration benefits Britian or not.

I am not sure I entirely agree with this, but lets for arguments say that I do.

What the per captia measure will give you, is a definite indication as to whether, you , personally, benefit from immigration into the UK. At the moment, it is is clear that you neither suffer nor benefit.


(Just for clarity, the bit that I disgaree with is that tax revenue is required to be a certain total amount - This can be derived from GDP. If the tax revenue is not high enough we need to borrow money, or raise taxes, or get more people paying tax. At the moment we solve it buy getting more people into work, through immigration, and borrow. If we cut immigration, then our taxes will have to go up to cover the balance. In this respect, immigration will have a definite effect on individuals, regardless of what the per capita measure says. Of course, the way round this is the get more people that already here into work. But it is far easier to get someone in to work who actually wants to work.)

Leslie

I really dont think that is correct. Apart from the arguments about tax balance and retiring etc. the public services are being swamped and we will run out of room eventually. There is only so much room for houses and vehicles on the roads and overpopulation brings its own problems too.

Les

PeteBrant

Which bit do you not think is correct?

Britian is not "overcrowded" by any stretch of the imagination.

At the current rate our population will rise by about 1,000,000 (give or take) every 10 years.

What evidence do we have that public services are being "swamped" due to immigration?

People are living longer, you need younger people working to pay for them. Unless you are going to raise the retirement age to 90

Paul3446

I agree that personally I neither benefit nor suffer financially directly. But as I said, what is the true cost of an extra few million people to public services.

How do you work out the cost of the following:
Police interpreters
Extra gridlock on roads, cost to business
Pressure on housing
All the immigrants who don't work/claim benefits
The child benefit we pay to their children back home in their own country
The NHS
Interpreters for doctors surgeries
Disruption to our children's education

To name but a few.

A lot of these are financial, but some are social issues that need to be addressed, I'm very much in favour of a balanced immigration policy, but I don't see any way we can get back to that now.

Paul3446

Quote:
"Britian is not "overcrowded" by any stretch of the imagination."

Oh come on now, really, I mean, you can't be serious!

Have you tried to drive on a motorway recently?

PeteBrant

Its quite possible that these are all factors that are having a direct impac ton us - But until we have a full and INDEPENDANT enquiry into the effects of immigration (not just the financial) ones, we will never know whether the impact is significant or inconsequential.

The government have based thier immigration policy on the fact that we need to achieve a certain tax revenue. And that in itself is not a bad reason as such. But, you need to measure what the knock on consequences are.

PeteBrant

Of course But you have remember that there is "overcrowded" and there is "overcrowded"

We have vast swathes of land, millions of sqaure acres, that are empty.

If people didn't insist on living all bunched together in cities, there wouldn't be a problem.

Britian, as a whole is not "overcrowded" even if certain areas of the country may well be.

Paul3446

"But until we have a full and INDEPENDANT enquiry into the effects of immigration (not just the financial) ones, we will never know whether the impact is significant or inconsequential."


Why do you have to an enquiry to tell you the bleeding obvious?

Surely you can make your own judgement, without having to have an official tell you something?

I mean how can it not be costing us a fortune?

Do you not wonder where all your taxes are going?

PeteBrant

How is it obvious?

All you can garner is what the average tax revenue is per immigrant, divided by the averge cost to the state. On average, according to this report, the immigrant is benefitting the state rather than the other way round.

Paul3446

But as you have pointed out, the cost to the state is not included in these figures!

PeteBrant

Well, the average earnings for an Immigrant is now higher than for a UK born citizen (this has more to do with the location to which immigrants settle in, than any improved skill set over British counter parts) Therefore the tax revenue collected is higher than the average British person.

Paul3446

I think your rose tinted specs are steaming up again!

What about the fact that 15% of our prison population is now made up of foreign inmates, and this figure is rising fast. Are these paying taxes?

Plus the ones who do not work.

Plus the illegals!

PeteBrant

Paul, the average immigrant earns more than the average UK born citizen.

SJ_Skyline

How can anybody be sure what the average earnings are when nobody knows how many immigrants there are in the UK?

PeteBrant

It will be the average of declared immigrants obviously.

And we are talking *all* immigrants, not just those outside the EU.

Paul3446

To answer my own question, it costs about £400 million a year to house foreign prisoners, this is a direct cost to the taxpayer and is not funded by immigrants.

fatherpierre

Bargain.

Paul3446

Was that sincere or sarcastic?

PeteBrant

Other than the immigrants paying £6 Billion in tax, obviously

Klaatu

Well said!!

Klaatu

To the detriment of the nation (Policies in favour of un-skilled migrants that is).

davegtt

Expected a better response than that from you buddy. The whole discussion is obviously being based on immigrants, not illegal immigrants. The illegals are a completely different discussion surely.

SJ_Skyline

Sorry Dave, it's been quite a hectic last month and I'm not firing on all 12 cylinders...

davegtt

12 cylinders? My, thats some engine you have

Paul3446

The government figures are obviously based on legal immigrants, as they don't have figures for illegal ones.

The considerable illegal immigrant population still costs the taxpayer money though. Plus how many legal immigrants let their visas run out and just disappear?

PeteBrant

Not for public services you wouldn't have thought? I mean they aren't going to claim benefits are they.

Obviously there is a cost for catching up with illegal immigrants.


End of the day, does the tax revenue from immigration get cancelled out by the cost to the state for having immigrants.

The answer to that is, apparantly, no - We are in "profit"

Of course this applies only to legal immigrants - And of course that is all it's going to apply to - You can't say a system doesn't work because of people breaking the law.

That's like saying the banking system doesn't work because some people rob banks, therefore we shouldn't have any banks.


Could be 3 could be 30,000. We don't know.

Paul3446

I know, and until someone officially tells you the exact figure, you can't possibly make a decision!

So, do you think that illegal immigration costs us nothing?

What about workers who pay no tax, that costs us money for a start, drivers without insurance, that costs us money.

In fact every individual who lives in this country, but doesn't contribute in taxes, is costing us money!