Overtaking: are you mad?
25 April 2008, 06:28 PM
#211
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25 April 2008, 07:37 PM
#213
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I think BB needs to get himself a Micra, all dodery old buggers have them and do no more than 30mph, maybe 35 down hill with the wind behind them.. If it's 60 mph then keep up with 60 (as long as the road conditions allow obviouslly) If you genuinely feel the need to slow down to Brian the snails speed then like I said it's time to move on and join the another forum. Overtaking can be sensible and you don't need to endanger anyone by doing so, if I wanted to sit behind everyone else I too would have bought something a lot slower.
Last edited by naughtyhunnybunny; 25 April 2008 at 07:44 PM.
25 April 2008, 07:54 PM
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I think something of a false dichotomy has been created via word play in this thread.
I don't think anyone is saying that people have to drive at the limit, but if you chose to drive under the limit then you should not complain if someone wishes to overtake you and does so responsibly. The highway code is VERY cleat that you should let them pass and even ease off the throttle if necessary. You should not be belligerent just to highlight the error of the other person's ways; that only compounds the danger!
Conversely, if you are going to overtake, you should do so in a manner that does not require the other car to take any action to accommodate your move; it should be done in a quick and decisive manner. If there is a large queue of traffic infront of you all quite tightly packed together, you have to ask yourself if that is the right time to overtake or whether it would not be better to maintain the flow with the prevailing traffic conditions i.e. with the majority of traffic, not just one or two people going considerably under the posted speed limit.
One of the pleasures (and skills) of driving a high performance car is making well judged overtaking moves.
One of the great skills of being a motorist generally is developing the road sense/craft to know what is going on around you and not impede the passage of other road users who wish to go quicker than you.
Always remember the saying:
He was right, dead right, as he drove along, but he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong!
Ns04
I don't think anyone is saying that people have to drive at the limit, but if you chose to drive under the limit then you should not complain if someone wishes to overtake you and does so responsibly. The highway code is VERY cleat that you should let them pass and even ease off the throttle if necessary. You should not be belligerent just to highlight the error of the other person's ways; that only compounds the danger!
Conversely, if you are going to overtake, you should do so in a manner that does not require the other car to take any action to accommodate your move; it should be done in a quick and decisive manner. If there is a large queue of traffic infront of you all quite tightly packed together, you have to ask yourself if that is the right time to overtake or whether it would not be better to maintain the flow with the prevailing traffic conditions i.e. with the majority of traffic, not just one or two people going considerably under the posted speed limit.
One of the pleasures (and skills) of driving a high performance car is making well judged overtaking moves.
One of the great skills of being a motorist generally is developing the road sense/craft to know what is going on around you and not impede the passage of other road users who wish to go quicker than you.
Always remember the saying:
He was right, dead right, as he drove along, but he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong!
Ns04
26 April 2008, 09:49 AM
#215
Hats off to BB. A most wonderfull display of trolling I have seen in quite a while. Apart from the small blip where he/she droped the ball with the direct insults- the attention was kept throughout. 45 in a 60 zone is ok? They would not have a driving license with that. Plain and simple. Maybe a retest to catch these jokers is needed. A driving style like that will remove idiots from the roads we don't need.
26 April 2008, 10:53 AM
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Hats off to BB. A most wonderfull display of trolling I have seen in quite a while. Apart from the small blip where he/she droped the ball with the direct insults- the attention was kept throughout. 45 in a 60 zone is ok? They would not have a driving license with that. Plain and simple. Maybe a retest to catch these jokers is needed. A driving style like that will remove idiots from the roads we don't need.
60 in a 45 is not
Wake up and smell the coffee
26 April 2008, 12:56 PM
#217
The thing that bugs me is that the people who pick cars off one by one tend to do so (on the roads I drive on) by crossing solid lines, into hatched areas, immediately before junctions (risking someone turning into them), etc etc...
If I could get past legally (other than the speed) then I would.... I'm not crossing solid lines and into hatchings because they tend to be there for good reason.
If I could get past legally (other than the speed) then I would.... I'm not crossing solid lines and into hatchings because they tend to be there for good reason.
26 April 2008, 11:04 PM
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I got almost overtaken in a 30 today. I was stopped at a pelicon crossing and it was still flashing amber plus an old lady was threatening to start crossing so I held back until I was sure she was going to stop at the kerb.
However I was watching her not my mirrors, and as soon as I started moving I heard a horn beeping - I hadn't seen the driver behind me who must have decided I was taking too long to get going and started passing me while I was actually driving on to the crossing.
She must have got a fright (as well as beeping her annoyance at me) and she ended up having to draw back in behind me as I was off and accelerating before I realised she was there and there were cars coming the other way!
However I was watching her not my mirrors, and as soon as I started moving I heard a horn beeping - I hadn't seen the driver behind me who must have decided I was taking too long to get going and started passing me while I was actually driving on to the crossing.
She must have got a fright (as well as beeping her annoyance at me) and she ended up having to draw back in behind me as I was off and accelerating before I realised she was there and there were cars coming the other way!
26 April 2008, 11:36 PM
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I have joined this thread a little late, I've read a few pages, but had to skip a few too!
I have to agree with most of what blueblaster has to say, also NS04 and Prasius, and some others have good points.
I'd be interested to know how old people who are posting are, and whether they have children.
I drive different depending on which car I am in, and who is with me, but whether I'm on my own in the scoob, or in the 1.4 Meriva with my 4 month old daughter, if I come up to the back of a long queue following something slow, that is where I stay. I don't like it, but I am totally against trying to pick off a queue of traffic one by one.
From what has been posted from the highway code it is the person at the front of the queue who should pull over. I agree that some of the following vehicles don't always take the appropriate opportunity to overtake, but if you are at the back of a queue of 5 or 6 cars, I would suggest that 2 or 3 of them want to make better progress. The thing is, like me, they will be thinking that it is safer to let the cars at the front overtake first and hopefully it will be their/my turn to overtake soon.
What I don't like is to be overtaken by some impatient mo fo who is really not going to get to the front of the queue but is hell bent on trying by overtaking and squeezing into peoples braking gaps. It is not on! It is dangerous, sometimes I will flash, but these days I don't bother as I have started to chill in my old age (of 30 years).
I have to agree with most of what blueblaster has to say, also NS04 and Prasius, and some others have good points.
I'd be interested to know how old people who are posting are, and whether they have children.
I drive different depending on which car I am in, and who is with me, but whether I'm on my own in the scoob, or in the 1.4 Meriva with my 4 month old daughter, if I come up to the back of a long queue following something slow, that is where I stay. I don't like it, but I am totally against trying to pick off a queue of traffic one by one.
From what has been posted from the highway code it is the person at the front of the queue who should pull over. I agree that some of the following vehicles don't always take the appropriate opportunity to overtake, but if you are at the back of a queue of 5 or 6 cars, I would suggest that 2 or 3 of them want to make better progress. The thing is, like me, they will be thinking that it is safer to let the cars at the front overtake first and hopefully it will be their/my turn to overtake soon.
What I don't like is to be overtaken by some impatient mo fo who is really not going to get to the front of the queue but is hell bent on trying by overtaking and squeezing into peoples braking gaps. It is not on! It is dangerous, sometimes I will flash, but these days I don't bother as I have started to chill in my old age (of 30 years).
27 April 2008, 12:17 AM
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^^ You're supposed to let people overtake & leave them some space to pull in rather than travel like a load of lemmings with zero space between each car!
TX.
TX.
27 April 2008, 10:10 AM
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What I don't like is to be overtaken by some impatient mo fo who is really not going to get to the front of the queue but is hell bent on trying by overtaking and squeezing into peoples braking gaps. It is not on! It is dangerous, sometimes I will flash, but these days I don't bother as I have started to chill in my old age (of 30 years).
).people say they don't like to be overtaken as "they are squeezing in or reducing my breaking gap". The reality is people don't like being overtaken and the above is a convenient excuse. The highway code says the onus is on the vehical being overtaken to maintain a safe distance, so this excuse is actually like admitting you were driving too close to the car in front
27 April 2008, 11:18 AM
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I've got to join in this "discussion".
FACT: You can fail your driving test for driving at speeds BELOW the limit if the road/conditions allow you to drive at the speed limit. SO........ GET YOUR FOOT DOWN AND DRIVE AT THE CORRECT SPEED!!!!!!!!!!!!! It prob causes more accidents than anything else! People get frustrated sitting behind cars doing 45/50 in a 60mph limit. They try and overtake anywhere (DANGEROUS ON THEIR PART I KNOW) but it happens. You see people overtake on bends etc. They shouldn't but due to the slow drivers holding them up, drivers do!!!!
FACT: You can fail your driving test for driving at speeds BELOW the limit if the road/conditions allow you to drive at the speed limit. SO........ GET YOUR FOOT DOWN AND DRIVE AT THE CORRECT SPEED!!!!!!!!!!!!! It prob causes more accidents than anything else! People get frustrated sitting behind cars doing 45/50 in a 60mph limit. They try and overtake anywhere (DANGEROUS ON THEIR PART I KNOW) but it happens. You see people overtake on bends etc. They shouldn't but due to the slow drivers holding them up, drivers do!!!!
27 April 2008, 01:39 PM
#225
all the rest was emotive bumf so I'm ignoring it (35 and no kids btw ).
people say they don't like to be overtaken as "they are squeezing in or reducing my breaking gap". The reality is people don't like being overtaken and the above is a convenient excuse. The highway code says the onus is on the vehical being overtaken to maintain a safe distance, so this excuse is actually like admitting you were driving too close to the car in front
).people say they don't like to be overtaken as "they are squeezing in or reducing my breaking gap". The reality is people don't like being overtaken and the above is a convenient excuse. The highway code says the onus is on the vehical being overtaken to maintain a safe distance, so this excuse is actually like admitting you were driving too close to the car in front
Actually - I see it as people using the wording of specific sections of highway code to justify their bloody stupid behaviour on a busy road.
Generally, we're talking about a road with heavy traffic, I will leave adequate breaking distance between myself and the car in front, it is NOT a barging in place for you to get into when a car comes the other direction when you carry out a badly planned and executed half-arsed overtaking maneuver.
Lets quote every appropriate section shall we? That's 162 to 169 for those who haven't looked at one for a few years.
162
Before overtaking you should make sure
* the road is sufficiently clear ahead
* road users are not beginning to overtake you
* there is a suitable gap in front of the road user you plan to overtake
Before overtaking you should make sure
* the road is sufficiently clear ahead
* road users are not beginning to overtake you
* there is a suitable gap in front of the road user you plan to overtake
163
Overtake only when it is safe and legal to do so. You should
* not get too close to the vehicle you intend to overtake
* use your mirrors, signal when it is safe to do so, take a quick sideways glance if necessary into the blind spot area and then start to move out
* not assume that you can simply follow a vehicle ahead which is overtaking; there may only be enough room for one vehicle
* move quickly past the vehicle you are overtaking, once you have started to overtake. Allow plenty of room. Move back to the left as soon as you can but do not cut in
* take extra care at night and in poor visibility when it is harder to judge speed and distance
* give way to oncoming vehicles before passing parked vehicles or other obstructions on your side of the road
* only overtake on the left if the vehicle in front is signalling to turn right, and there is room to do so
* stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left
* give motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders at least as much room as you would when overtaking a car (see Rules 211-215)
Remember: Mirrors – Signal – Manoeuvre
Overtake only when it is safe and legal to do so. You should
* not get too close to the vehicle you intend to overtake
* use your mirrors, signal when it is safe to do so, take a quick sideways glance if necessary into the blind spot area and then start to move out
* not assume that you can simply follow a vehicle ahead which is overtaking; there may only be enough room for one vehicle
* move quickly past the vehicle you are overtaking, once you have started to overtake. Allow plenty of room. Move back to the left as soon as you can but do not cut in
* take extra care at night and in poor visibility when it is harder to judge speed and distance
* give way to oncoming vehicles before passing parked vehicles or other obstructions on your side of the road
* only overtake on the left if the vehicle in front is signalling to turn right, and there is room to do so
* stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left
* give motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders at least as much room as you would when overtaking a car (see Rules 211-215)
Remember: Mirrors – Signal – Manoeuvre
164
Large vehicles. Overtaking these is more difficult. You should
* drop back. This will increase your ability to see ahead and should allow the driver of the large vehicle to see you in their mirrors. Getting too close to large vehicles, including agricultural vehicles such as a tractor with a trailer or other fixed equipment, will obscure your view of the road ahead and there may be another slow-moving vehicle in front
* make sure that you have enough room to complete your overtaking manoeuvre before committing yourself. It takes longer to pass a large vehicle. If in doubt do not overtake
* not assume you can follow a vehicle ahead which is overtaking a long vehicle. If a problem develops, they may abort overtaking and pull back in
Large vehicles. Overtaking these is more difficult. You should
* drop back. This will increase your ability to see ahead and should allow the driver of the large vehicle to see you in their mirrors. Getting too close to large vehicles, including agricultural vehicles such as a tractor with a trailer or other fixed equipment, will obscure your view of the road ahead and there may be another slow-moving vehicle in front
* make sure that you have enough room to complete your overtaking manoeuvre before committing yourself. It takes longer to pass a large vehicle. If in doubt do not overtake
* not assume you can follow a vehicle ahead which is overtaking a long vehicle. If a problem develops, they may abort overtaking and pull back in
165
You MUST NOT overtake
* if you would have to cross or straddle double white lines with a solid line nearest to you (but see Rule 129)
* if you would have to enter an area designed to divide traffic, if it is surrounded by a solid white line
* the nearest vehicle to a pedestrian crossing, especially when it has stopped to let pedestrians cross
* if you would have to enter a lane reserved for buses, trams or cycles during its hours of operation
* after a ‘No Overtaking’ sign and until you pass a sign cancelling the restriction
[Laws RTA 1988 sect 36, TSRGD regs 10, 22, 23 & 24, ZPPPCRGD reg 24]
You MUST NOT overtake
* if you would have to cross or straddle double white lines with a solid line nearest to you (but see Rule 129)
* if you would have to enter an area designed to divide traffic, if it is surrounded by a solid white line
* the nearest vehicle to a pedestrian crossing, especially when it has stopped to let pedestrians cross
* if you would have to enter a lane reserved for buses, trams or cycles during its hours of operation
* after a ‘No Overtaking’ sign and until you pass a sign cancelling the restriction
[Laws RTA 1988 sect 36, TSRGD regs 10, 22, 23 & 24, ZPPPCRGD reg 24]
166
DO NOT overtake if there is any doubt, or where you cannot see far enough ahead to be sure it is safe. For example, when you are approaching
* a corner or bend
* a hump bridge
* the brow of a hill
DO NOT overtake if there is any doubt, or where you cannot see far enough ahead to be sure it is safe. For example, when you are approaching
* a corner or bend
* a hump bridge
* the brow of a hill
167
DO NOT overtake where you might come into conflict with other road users. For example
* approaching or at a road junction on either side of the road
* where the road narrows
* when approaching a school crossing patrol
* between the kerb and a bus or tram when it is at a stop
* where traffic is queuing at junctions or road works
* when you would force another road user to swerve or slow down
* at a level crossing
* when a road user is indicating right, even if you believe the signal should have been cancelled. Do not take a risk; wait for the signal to be cancelled
* stay behind if you are following a cyclist approaching a roundabout or junction, and you intend to turn left
* when a tram is standing at a kerbside tram stop and there is no clearly marked passing lane for other traffic
DO NOT overtake where you might come into conflict with other road users. For example
* approaching or at a road junction on either side of the road
* where the road narrows
* when approaching a school crossing patrol
* between the kerb and a bus or tram when it is at a stop
* where traffic is queuing at junctions or road works
* when you would force another road user to swerve or slow down
* at a level crossing
* when a road user is indicating right, even if you believe the signal should have been cancelled. Do not take a risk; wait for the signal to be cancelled
* stay behind if you are following a cyclist approaching a roundabout or junction, and you intend to turn left
* when a tram is standing at a kerbside tram stop and there is no clearly marked passing lane for other traffic
Ohhhh! Now get this section!! I specifically draw your attention to - "approaching or at a road junction at either side of the road" and a true clincher to all the people desperately grasping one line of the highway code to justify cutting someone up - "When you would force another road user to swerve or slow down" I think thats pretty plain to understand. You cut me up, I have to slow down in order to maintain braking distance. YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE OVERTAKEN IN THE FIRST PLACE!
Now... the section the "pro's" here are grasping onto:
168
Being overtaken. If a driver is trying to overtake you, maintain a steady course and speed, slowing down if necessary to let the vehicle pass. Never obstruct drivers who wish to pass. Speeding up or driving unpredictably while someone is overtaking you is dangerous. Drop back to maintain a two-second gap if someone overtakes and pulls into the gap in front of you.
Being overtaken. If a driver is trying to overtake you, maintain a steady course and speed, slowing down if necessary to let the vehicle pass. Never obstruct drivers who wish to pass. Speeding up or driving unpredictably while someone is overtaking you is dangerous. Drop back to maintain a two-second gap if someone overtakes and pulls into the gap in front of you.
169
Do not hold up a long queue of traffic, especially if you are driving a large or slow-moving vehicle. Check your mirrors frequently, and if necessary, pull in where it is safe and let traffic pass.
Do not hold up a long queue of traffic, especially if you are driving a large or slow-moving vehicle. Check your mirrors frequently, and if necessary, pull in where it is safe and let traffic pass.
27 April 2008, 02:04 PM
#226
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As a rule I agree with you. However, if I'm in a queue of traffic and someone overtakes me and slots into a gap a left between me and and car in front and subsequently forces me to brake then I would happily see that driver lose his/her licence. And by brake I mean brake at all. If you are going to overtake then other road users should have to make no adjustment whatsoever as a result of your actions. Regardless of what speed you think they should be doing you have to remember they are doing nothing wrong and seeing a bewinged Subaru squeeze in and out of traffic as it leapfrogs it's way to the head of a queue is not going to look good however safely you do it.
Just to turn your argument around have you considered sitting in the queue with the other cars? Unless it is a very long road you will probably save a minute at most by putting everyone at an increased risk of an accident by overtaking. And before everyone jumps down my throat for saying that make sure you read exactly what I said. I did not say overtaking causes accidents. What it does do is increase the chance of an accident, especially when dealing with other motorists who are not as competent/confident as you.
Just to turn your argument around have you considered sitting in the queue with the other cars? Unless it is a very long road you will probably save a minute at most by putting everyone at an increased risk of an accident by overtaking. And before everyone jumps down my throat for saying that make sure you read exactly what I said. I did not say overtaking causes accidents. What it does do is increase the chance of an accident, especially when dealing with other motorists who are not as competent/confident as you.
I'm not the slowest driver on the planet, but when in a queue behind a slow moving vehicle, I try to give those in front a fair chance before dropping a cog. Nothing worse than while waiting to give others a shot, than some chancer makes a charge from the back and makes it difficult for all. And, at the same time making himself look a total gimp.
27 April 2008, 03:01 PM
#228
27 April 2008, 03:44 PM
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all the rest was emotive bumf so I'm ignoring it (35 and no kids btw ).
people say they don't like to be overtaken as "they are squeezing in or reducing my breaking gap". The reality is people don't like being overtaken and the above is a convenient excuse. The highway code says the onus is on the vehical being overtaken to maintain a safe distance, so this excuse is actually like admitting you were driving too close to the car in front
).people say they don't like to be overtaken as "they are squeezing in or reducing my breaking gap". The reality is people don't like being overtaken and the above is a convenient excuse. The highway code says the onus is on the vehical being overtaken to maintain a safe distance, so this excuse is actually like admitting you were driving too close to the car in front
So, because I don't think there is enough space to safely overtake the car in front of me I should leave enough space for the guy behind to get past me?
We may each have a specific bit of road that we are picturing when thinking about this thread, I know I do, mine is particularly twisty with very few straights, perhaps my thoughts would differ if I considered a different stretch of road.
27 April 2008, 07:03 PM
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Fair comment, I had just finished a bottle of wine so that might explain it!
So, because I don't think there is enough space to safely overtake the car in front of me I should leave enough space for the guy behind to get past me?
We may each have a specific bit of road that we are picturing when thinking about this thread, I know I do, mine is particularly twisty with very few straights, perhaps my thoughts would differ if I considered a different stretch of road.
So, because I don't think there is enough space to safely overtake the car in front of me I should leave enough space for the guy behind to get past me?
We may each have a specific bit of road that we are picturing when thinking about this thread, I know I do, mine is particularly twisty with very few straights, perhaps my thoughts would differ if I considered a different stretch of road.
The actual road is not the issue, this is all about how you should drive all the time...regardless of whether you believe its dangerous (or not), to overtake. Perhaps the car\driver behind you is quicker than yours\you and can make that overtake safely where yours\you cannot?
27 April 2008, 09:35 PM
#231
The actual road is not the issue, this is all about how you should drive all the time...regardless of whether you believe its dangerous (or not), to overtake. Perhaps the car\driver behind you is quicker than yours\you and can make that overtake safely where yours\you cannot?
I do think that many of us are thinking of far worse overtaking behaviour than the OP was originally talking about though.
Last edited by Prasius; 27 April 2008 at 09:37 PM.
28 April 2008, 09:51 AM
#233
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I'd be very surprised if the average user has 300bhp...I'd imagine its closer to 250 and I was really alluding to over 350; that's when the extra power makes a substantial difference in the real world.
28 April 2008, 02:26 PM
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28 April 2008, 02:43 PM
#235
I'll go for it if I can take the whole queue in one hit. There's not enough room on most UK roads to pick them off one by one. Not like France.
Only problem here is that if the 2nd person in the line suddenly decides to go for it. By the time I've overtaken 4 other cars, I'm very ready to brake hard, because by that point, speed is pretty high....
It hasn't happened yet, but I'm sure it will at some point. Has happened many times on the motorbike.
Only problem here is that if the 2nd person in the line suddenly decides to go for it. By the time I've overtaken 4 other cars, I'm very ready to brake hard, because by that point, speed is pretty high....
It hasn't happened yet, but I'm sure it will at some point. Has happened many times on the motorbike.
28 April 2008, 03:13 PM
#236
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I'll go for it if I can take the whole queue in one hit. There's not enough room on most UK roads to pick them off one by one. Not like France.
Only problem here is that if the 2nd person in the line suddenly decides to go for it. By the time I've overtaken 4 other cars, I'm very ready to brake hard, because by that point, speed is pretty high....
It hasn't happened yet, but I'm sure it will at some point. Has happened many times on the motorbike.
Only problem here is that if the 2nd person in the line suddenly decides to go for it. By the time I've overtaken 4 other cars, I'm very ready to brake hard, because by that point, speed is pretty high....
It hasn't happened yet, but I'm sure it will at some point. Has happened many times on the motorbike.
Had a chap on a motorbike overtake me yesterday, textbook move: pulled out flashed his lights to draw my attention to his move and then went past pulled in, no action required on my part at all.
If only they were all that good.
Ns04
28 April 2008, 05:13 PM
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I'll go for it if I can take the whole queue in one hit. There's not enough room on most UK roads to pick them off one by one. Not like France.
Only problem here is that if the 2nd person in the line suddenly decides to go for it. By the time I've overtaken 4 other cars, I'm very ready to brake hard, because by that point, speed is pretty high....
It hasn't happened yet, but I'm sure it will at some point. Has happened many times on the motorbike.
Only problem here is that if the 2nd person in the line suddenly decides to go for it. By the time I've overtaken 4 other cars, I'm very ready to brake hard, because by that point, speed is pretty high....
It hasn't happened yet, but I'm sure it will at some point. Has happened many times on the motorbike.
28 April 2008, 09:59 PM
#238
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Overtakeing is part of driving, i cant stand sitting behind slow drivers! even if my journey is only cut short by 30seconds at least i dont have the frustration of being behind someone that i think is drving to slow. I know roads that are 60mph that i would never go above 50 due to the road conditions etc but on a decent road 60mph is a very easy and comfortable speed to travel at. and lets face it a safe overtake is ALOT of fun!
28 April 2008, 10:03 PM
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Location: Doncaster, S. Yorks.
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Overtakeing is part of driving, i cant stand sitting behind slow drivers! even if my journey is only cut short by 30seconds at least i dont have the frustration of being behind someone that i think is drving to slow. I know roads that are 60mph that i would never go above 50 due to the road conditions etc but on a decent road 60mph is a very easy and comfortable speed to travel at. and lets face it a safe overtake is ALOT of fun!
28 April 2008, 10:47 PM
#240
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2005
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think youve made a good point there. not necessarily the time saved by overtaking, to me also its about the frustration of being stuck behind some clueless halfwit in their 80's with satellite dishes for ears and milk bottle for glasses... usually driving a rover 400 series in racing green, on an l-plate... with rust...and scratch marks.
Kevin