The Zohan

assuming it is PSL then it smacks of a vendetta

if not it just sucks for putting such comments - worthy of an infraction - NOPE!

appears that there are some real saddos on here...

Martin2005

The truth hurts, what truth?

Your post contained the words ALWAYS and NEVER (in bold), when that cannot possibly be the case, can it?

I'm not trying to represent the Labour Party (or any other for that matter), I was simply making a point about the way these debates develop on here, which I find both interesting and frustrating, in equal measure.

This is why I beleive this country is becoming increasingly ungovernable, because people are becoming less interested in the facts and the balanced reality than they are in opinion (and very often not even their own opinion). If they hear something that doesn't fit with their own view of the world then it a lie or spin, and absolutely anything that does fit immediately becomes the truth; it's bonkers!

As for a list of achievements, well as I said that's not by beef here. I'll give a few of my thoughts based upon the 'facts' as I understand them, but I know this will not be good enough for you.

A good start point would be 11 years of continuous economic growth, which is pretty astonishing in a historical context. As a result we are unquestionably wealthier, both individually and collectively. Now I suspect we'll end up in a debate about how much of this is due to good economic management by the government, but they cannot go without some credit here in my view.

There are of course many many benefits from the above, which I'm sure you are all too aware of, lower interest rates, low inflation, more money to fund our public services.

Speaking of public services, I think this is both a great achievement and at the same time a missed opportunity by the current government, it was absolutely right to get spending levels up for Education and Health (that debate is over and was ended by 3 electorial defeat for the Tories, and them promising the same spending plans as the current government). The missed opportunity for me is that they didn't reform the public services properly, they ran away from taking on the unions and the other vested interests, and got cold feet at carrying out really radical reforms, for this I blame Brown, when he was brooding away in No.11 Downing Street being the 'road block to reforms'.

Nido

and you've only just worked that out Paul??

Martin2005

I don't think it is PSL, why would he attack me for being a lefty when he's a real NL nut?

The Zohan

But no so much, now his hero tone left for pastures more profitable.

If not then who do you reckon then?

PeteBrant

I think both parties suffer from this lack of radical policy making. The Labour front benches have to pander to the old party left, and the Tories have to pander to the old party right.

To be honest - That's the only thing that maintains any idealogical differences between the two.

Martin2005

Who knows, who cares?

All I know is that they shouldn't of been infracted for those comments, afterall they we aimed at me and I didn't take offence (I've been called worse than that....by you in fact )

Martin2005

Yep and therein lies part of what I'm getting at.

If the government changed tomorrow 99% of economic and social policy would remain unchanged, yet all of a sudden, the 'Labour Haters' would change their views from the government a lying, incompetent, blah, blah blah, to something quite different.

And we wonder why politician spin?

The Zohan

Yup, i got infracted (reversed in the end) for calling PSL a ******* so not much would surprise me.

Lets try it again - martin you *******!

Martin2005

lozgti

What I do not understand is why everything seems/feels worse,not better?

I am doing the same job as I did,improved pay and yet I feel annoyed with everything? Maybe its the nannying part,maybe its the 'I'm meant to be better off but it really doesn't feel that way' feeling.Maybe these vast improvements might have happened but and a big but

Schools seem worse
NHS seems the same at best
Dentists..what the hell happened there?
Public Transport..why is it better?
People...obnoxious and angry

And everything is so expensive coupled with nut crushing taxes and especially the persecution of the motorist.

I'm sorry but I do not think labour improved anything

GC8WRX

Without taxing us all to the hilt? WTF are you on pal?

75 new taxes under nu labia, and nearly 1,000 small things that you can now be fined for, that 10 years ago werent a consideration! (bin lid open by 4 inches? we want 200 quid for that sir!, stray into a yellow junction box by one wheel, we want 80 quid for that sir!, singing football songs during the world cup, thats a breach of the peace, "yellow card" and 80 quid sir!, accidentally mix a can into the glass recycle box? we want 120 quid for that sir!)

All of the above are taxes in everything but name! thats how nu labia are taxing us to the hilt!


And dont forget, if you have a family 1.8 mondeo to ferry your kids around, we want 450 quid a year in tax for that sir, the worst tax of all!( a tax on taking your kids to footy practice, or the cinema!)

And if you stray too near a city you will pay at least 5 quid a day for the right to drive on their roads( 25 if you live in stupid london)!


IT TAKES THE PI55, AND IT NEEDS TO STOP NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Martin2005

I think the feeling of annoyance with things (which I am definitely effected by too) is more to do with the ecconomy having been so good for so long, people have forgotten what it can be like when it all goes **** up (we may find out again soon). In the absense of economic crisis people focus on other stuff (rightly so to some extent), like crime, immigration etc etc.

As Bill Clinton once said 'it's the economy stupid'

BTW I have to disagree with you on the NHS, it is unquestionably better now than it was, and god only knows what state it would be in now had the investment not gone in, but yes they could and should of done better.

Martin2005

This is just another gross exageration of the facts.

Well I must of missed David Camerons speech when he promised to repeal all these so-called taxes

GC8WRX

Exactly what is exaggerated?

Martin2005

Well pretty much all of it actually.

In the name of balance and fairness I assume you researched the number of new taxes that were introduced under the previous government, and the number of these 'new taxes' that are actually changes to old taxes?

Klaatu

New Labour are more Tory than Tory ever were! Or is that more "Neocon" (Erosion of human rights etc in the name of "security and climate change")?

The Zohan

I would say that human rights and the love of the EU bill currently prevents us from getting rid of terrorist, racist and hate inciters such as Abu Hamza.

Stops us deporting illegals who commit crimes in the UK, enter illegally and claim they will be victimised on their return, etc.

I would say that human rights, etc have prevented corporal punishment in schools and partly responsible the subsequent problems.

I would say NL and Human Rights are good pals tbh.

I for one voted for NL to get rid of the Tories, i was prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt - i was badly let down and i was WRONG!

GC8WRX

Right here we go.................


fining people whos bin lid is 4 inches open = stealth tax (ok read in the paper but still 10 years ago the bin men would have asked if you had family over for the weekend, hence te extra rubbish, not grassed you up to some w@nker of a council official who decides a crime has been committed and fines you)

straying into yellow junction boxes = stealth tax (happened to my neighbour, 10 years ago there was no camera to catch this "crime")

not recycling properly - stealth tax (happened to my mum, but surely recycling plants have systems in place to catch the odd bit of metal in the glass machine, and it doesnt cost 120 quid to remove it so whats the money being spent on?, more officials to fine us for more stuff, thats what)

10 years ago nu labia would have been vilified for fining people for what they are fined for today


Who invented "fixed penalties" for stuff that wasnt an issue 10 years ago?

NU LABIA.

Who is trying to give local councils the power to administer fines instead of the police, to make it easier to for them to collect money from us (our local council has just employed TWENTY new traffic wardens to patrol our streets as of 14 may,. each with a target of 8 "contraventions" a day. There is even a lorry driving around macc with new things you can be fined for written up the side, so the council can say there was fair warning! This sheme has to make 1/2 a million a year in fines just to break even, why not just leave it the way it was?)

NU LABIA


Do i need to go on?



And all of this is to pay for the olympics that nobody wanted, cctv that watches you at every turn that no one wanted, mosques that breed hatred to the west that no one except ******* muslims wanted, quangos that "advise" the government that are a waste of money, fcking human rights for criminals (led by that stupid ***** cherie blair) and countless other stuff that the average english person doesnt need or want.

And that with out taking into account MP's gold plated pensions, stupid expense accounts, second home that are redecorated annually, employing family as "researchers" and other pi55 take stuff that we, the tax payer, fork out for!

PeteBrant

The average tax burden as a percentage of income under labour has not increased.

It's 42%, exactly as it was in '86 - It's been around 40% for deacades.

Check up on it.

The fines you are talking about are all completely avoidable, which is why they aren't included in the tax burden.

Martin2005

If you want to have a serious discussion about serious political subjects then why keep using the childish and frankly numptish term Nu Labia, it portrays the rest of what you say in a fairly dim light. Then it strikes me that you are the guy who thinks that there is nothing wrong with booing other countries National Anthems (as discussed on another thread)!!

As for all the things you just posted up yes they can happen but they really don't happen very often do they? Also I would say that the vast majority of these fines are council controlled and administered, they cannot possibly raise enough revenue to be seen as anything other than (misguided maybe) ways of controlling certain issues and/behaviours.

Martin2005

Plus Pete, don't forget the UK is still a relatively low tax economy versus mainland europe.

PeteBrant

Precisely.

And therein lies part of the whole imigration argument:

You either have good public services and lots of tax revenue.

Or you have poor public services and low tax revenue.


There is no option to have good public services and low taxes - Which is what the Tories used to try and sell until they realised that we weren't going to buy that anymore. (Hence they will not commit to any tax reductions).

Labours plan was to increase tax revenue, was not to raise tax revenue through raising taxes, but to raise tax revenue by getting more people paying tax. And the quickest way to do this is to import workers. Hence immigration.

Martin2005

You've got more lefty credentials than me the Paul, as I didn't vote for Labour 97'

Martin2005

Pete, I think you may have just re-opened pandoras box again!!

Martin2005

'You can get vast efficiencies in the public service, spend a lot less AND keep service levels as they are' - you can? Please run for office then, I'll vote for you for sure if you've solved this one.

PeteBrant

The Tories tried to spend a lot less on public services and virtually ran them into the ground.

I don't doubt that there can be some trimming of excess fat - but you won't get away with spending a lot less.

The Tories spent three elections trying to convince the public that was the case, and failed dismally - It is only recently they have accepted that you simply cannot have world class public services on a shoestring budget.

Public spending increases were needed - If the Tories hadn't left the NHS etc to rot, then the spending could have been a lot less - We had to spend a hell of a lot just to get on a par with the rest of Europe.

Public servies are much better than they were a decade or so ago - They aren't perfect, but they are a damn sight better than they were.

GC8WRX

I guess we have very different views mate, thats fair enough, but dont do what my missus does and bring up arguments from the past, lets concentrate on the task at hand! (booing other countires national anthems during the world cup is a bit of pi55ed up patriotic fun, nothing more. BTW most countries do it to us as well)


Back to topic......

All the revenue made from fining people just goes into one big pot, so while the fines are council controlled, some of the money goes to the government!


Take the proposed "congestion charge" for manchester, thats there to raise revenue, nothing more! (im not paying a fiver to drive on the ring road to the trafford centre, ******* pi55takes! Plus if its a congetstion charge, why does it apply all the time, not just during rush hours? And lets not forget the reason there are rush hours is cos people need to go to work, thus its another stealth tax on our working lives!!!!!!)
Will we get detailed info on what the money is being spent on, NO, cos labour dont want us to see the details i.e more road charging schemes across the country.


Soon it will be BENEFICIAL to my financial situation if i quit work and claimed all the benefits i could (NO council tax, free 3 bed house thats done up every 3 years, free school meals for the kids, congestion charge exempt, no fines cos your on benefits, the list goes on)


That is the fcuked up position new labour(better?) has got us into, where its better for your wallet if you claim benefits, you actually have more disposable income than if you worked 40 hours a week and paid for everything yourself!

Martin2005

'im not paying a fiver to drive on the ring road to the trafford centre, ******* pi55takes'
Well you've answered your own point there, and if it's a congestion charge and you will avoid driving into the 'zone' then it means it works! The problem is that they don't work and I agree with you they become a 'nice little earner' for the local authority. I think that public transport needs to be the beneficiary of all congestion charge revenue, at least then it looks like a 'joined-up policy'.

As for the giving up and living on benefits, I'm pretty sure that you're too proud and consciencious to do something like that. Besides that really is a Daily Mail headline, steriotypical misconception of reality of the benefits system.