Clarebabes

Common sense will never prevail here, so let's stop coming up with really useful ideas!

Clarebabes

Who would be eligible for the permits? Why would someone get one and someone not?

PeteBrant

You can't base any expediture on fluctuating income. Revenue raised from Fuel duty is fixed - VAT income isn't (which is where the extra revenue is coming from, as it is a percentage not a fixed duty). What happens when the price of Oil comes down and the VAT revenue is reduced?

It would be extremely foolish to base any long term policy on the price of oil.

The Zohan

As i was (or at least i thought i was) agreeing with you.

I managed to walk our eldest twice last week due to work timings, i really enjoyed it, great to get in a walk before work and take her, she enjoyed it a well.

Usually it is a 2 min drive in the car.

It suck but we have to earn to pay for stuff, not just luxuries and not complaining and we are not in any way unique.

Oh, as a side issue.

Someone we know (Jennys brother lives with her) who has never worked a day in her life (other than cash in hand) and has spat out 4 kids in the last 14 years, lives in a council house, two hols a year, etc, ect sends her daughter to nursery twice a week, paid for by the gov't. She claims it is to get the daughter to meet and interact with other kids - perhaps if she spent less time watching telly, smoking and a bit more down the park or out with other mums the child would get the social skills.

This is of course free of charge for her. Makes you wonder sometimes why you bother...

PeteBrant

But Paul, what does this have to do with anything?

And even if it was relevant - What do you suggest is the alternative? Remove the support for the Child to go to nursery? Why should the child suffer?

Clarebabes

Yes, and I don't see why you wouldn't, it was a valid point!

The Zohan

I said as a side issue, subjects evolved, and branch out sometimes calm down
as you (choose?) to miss the point.

We have to pay for childcare, we do not get it for free. We have to take out little ones to school/nursery to allow us to get to work on time - in which there is no flexibility (99%) of the time

No and i would certainly not punish the child. However, where is he incentive for her to get out and socialise - the mother that is, with the other kids when it is provided and she can cosily tuck herself up wit Jeremy Kyle, Value Vodka and some **** at home (this is not an exagerration, fro conversations with her).

She has spent her life with her hand out - and been rewarded for it.

The Zohan

I said as a side issue, subjects evolved, and branch out sometimes calm down, no one has mentioned the BNP - yet
as you (choose?) to miss the point.

We have to pay for childcare, we do not get it for free. We have to take out little ones to school/nursery in the car, to allow us to get to work on time - in which there is no flexibility (99%) of the time.

No and i would certainly not punish the child. However, where is he incentive for her to get out and socialise - the mother that is, with the other kids when it is provided and she can cosily tuck herself up with Jeremy Kyle, Value Vodka and some **** at home (this is not an exagerration, from conversations with her).

She has spent her life with her hand out (*** on the sofa) - and been rewarded for it.

The gov't are happy to provide services like this free to people that do not actually really need them, yet looking to punish through tax those who do. So this is quiet relevant of an example of fairness - or lack of it.

I rest my case my lord!


School buses as per the states - excellent idea!

PeteBrant

It's not that , Paul, its that all threads lead to benefits/immigration or a mixture of the two - Even when on the surface there is no link. It just gets tiresome sometimes.
So whats the alternative? The Nursery costs won't be paid in cash - They will paid direct. She will never see the money that goes to Nursery costs and the child gets to go to Nursery twice a week.

I guess my question is, what would you like to see happen instead?

Thing is, if the parent is the sort of parent that woud like to sit on her ****, drink vodka and smoke **** all day, then I would say the child is far better off at Nursery - Its the only decent interaction the child is going to get.


Like I say, any course of action that leads to the Nursery place being jepordised, punishes the child.

Thats why you need to be very very careful with the cutting of any sort of child benefits.


As an aside, Have you looked into whether you qualify for help with childcare? You might find you do.

Jay m A

iTrader: (2)

Continuing the side issue, you may find the child is at nursery 2.5 days a week if the kid is over 3yo, since every parent gets that free (5 sessions - a session is considered a morning or an afternoon), benefits or not.

The Zohan

Peter

I would rather see the stick used instead of the free carrot, benefits cut of she does not get a bit more involved, not just offered free places, yes the child will benefit, no doubt. incidentally I am not saying she neglects the child in the physical sense either, not the case.

She has had little incentive to do anything and this is being perpetuated, pretty much everything is provided and has always been provided. Now childcare is as well - for someone who does nothing except stay at home (other than working cash in hand).

The systems punish and drag down those that try and reward those that do not.

I would not wish the child or indeed any child harm - what the mother could do with is some parenting classes and spending some time do other stuff that watching telly and if she cannot see it herself then it is pointed out by enforcement/penalties. All she then needs to do is get up and get involved - nothing else.

The Zohan

Yup, this is what they get. benefits or not.

surely, rather than dumping their kids at state paid for Nurseries the parents and kids would be better served with classes and social interaction at say the local community centre/leisure centre. Kids play and get assessed and the parents get out and to meet others and maybe learn some stuff about parenting from others there, etc.

It irritates me that people on benefits who already do not work or really need child care get it for free.
It just seems to benefit lazy parents who just cannot be bothered - just farm the kid out to a nursery when they should be more involved.

MrNoisy

iTrader: (28)

I'd say that's a concise summary of the result of changes implemented by this government since it's been in power!

One thing that hasn't been mentioned an awful lot in this thread yet is car share (at least not that I saw?). I used to car share with two others and our parents would take it in turns to pick us up from the bus stop; easier for the parents AND they're not driving all the way to school.

I guess one of the problems here is that neighbours are a lot less friendly to each other nowadays than in the past (more so down South than up North)? Or is that just me being over the top?

unclebuck

It's about time some of these bloody selfish parents had a reality check. I reckon the majority don't need to drive children to school - or pick them up. They cause absolute chaos apart from any so called 'green' issues.

When I was at school nobody got picked up or dropped off. They would have been laughed at for being 'cissy'.

MrNoisy

iTrader: (28)

Agreed - the so called "green issue" is nothing more than horsesh*t cooked up by the local councils and government, and an excuse to tax us even more heavily than they already do. The fact that petrol has gone up by about 25% already this year doesn't seem to be deterring the greedy b*stards.

If they really wanted to do something about the environment they'd plough the money they make from the taxation / congestion charging back into environmental initiatives or renewable energy sources; instead they spend it on doing up their second houses with new £7k kitchens

PeteBrant

Never going to happen. Because the child will ultimately suffer - You cannot simply cut off benefits
What penalties though Paul? You cannot stop benefits to the Mother because the child will suffer for it.


It is easy to say "Stop benefits to scroungers" but much much more difficult to say exactly how that is managed - That bit never seems to get answered.

PeteBrant

To be fair, Paul, I think people on Benefits irritate you full stop

Dream Weaver

Although the idea of kids walking to school is a genuine one, and would possibly help with healthier lifestyles etc, the way the gov't wrap it up in the "save the planet" rubbish is just laughable.

It is just tax revenue generation, pure and simple - why dont they just buy more school buses and do as Clare says, like the US yellow bus schemes? Because it would cost the gov't money.

I am amazed at how many people fall for the eco line the gov't spin all the time when it is just down to income generation.

PeteBrant - I know you love playing devils advocate, but even you must see what is behind these taxes, whether they are a good idea or not?

PeteBrant

I'm not playing devils advocate - you will find just as many in this thread suppor the idea as oppose. As I have already said, whether £75 ios an approproate figure is another matter - But the overall intention to dissuade people from taking kids to school and that being the sole purpose of the journey is a valid one - Nor is it anything new, it has been talked about for years.

It is not a revenue raising exercise, because if it works, it will actually end up costing the council money.

Clarebabes

I don't think people who drive their kids to school are greedy - remember, not all of us are Sloan Rangers who have 4x4s just for the Hell of it. Some of us have a genuine reason for transporting our kids to school this way because:

a. It's too far to walk; &
b. I have to drive past the school on my way to work which is alot further away than the school.

Saying we're greedy is nonsense.

Clarebabes

I think you'll find that the reason why lots of people on this thread agree with you is because:

a. They don't have kids, let alone school age kids; &
b. As the majority of you are men, MOST of the time, it's the mum's responsibility to do this sort of thing, so most of you don't get involved. All you see is that it takes an extra 20 minutes to get to work when it's not school holidays.

So, what we gonna do about this yellow bus thing then?

PeteBrant

Like I said Clare, I think if you have kids in infant/primary school and are dropping them off on your way to work, I don't think there is much of an argument against this sort of thing.

I think it should be targetted at the following groups

(i)Parents of teenagers that drives thier kids to school
(ii)Parent of kids that make a specific journey to take them to school and are within walking distance
(iii)Parents of kids that drive thier kids to school despite a school bus service (which some do operate)


As for a state run School bus, I should imagine some of the cost could come from the free travel that many under 16's currently have. Obviously this isn't nationwide at the moment, but it could be made to be. Oyster cards cost the transport system around £35million - This could be transferred to a school bus system (as this is primarily the reason for free travel for under 16s).

You could possibly have income from businesses in the area (workforce less likely to be held up by traffic, Sponsored busses, Public awareness etc)

Or you up council tax in the area to pay for it. (Probably very unpopular! )

Geezer

Fair comment, in that case just charge everyone who wants to drive the £75! That will weed out the lazy tw@ts who really should be walking their kids to school. If you have a job to continue onto, I'm sure £75 a year ain't gonna break your bank.

The school that my kids go to is positively dangerous because of the cars parked making visibilty poor for those wishing to cross roads, and the speed that people zoom up and down the road outside the school is scandalous, just because they were too damned lazy in the first place to walk an ended up getting frantic 'cos they can't find a parking place to drop off the kids.

The minority that have to drive are inconvenienced by the lazy **** majority. Bring the charge on!

Geezer

Lee247

I don't have any choice in the matter. I have to take my kids to school/college. We live out in the sticks and do not have the luxury of a bus service close by. Walking is not an option either as school/college is too far away.
I most certainly would not be prepared to pay any more than I do already, to a Council that is the biggest waste of space on the planet

PeteBrant

Th other way ou could do it is a permit system based on proximity to the school. For exmaple anyone within, say, a 3 mile radius doesn't get one at all. Anyone within 5 miles can get one but has to a pay a fee, and anyone outside of 5 miles gets one free.

You have to accept that some people will have no alternative but to drive, and I'm not sure they should be punished.

Of course this only applies to Infant/primary schools - High school children have no excuse

Janspeed

iTrader: (1)

I think that paying for everything that "should" be free makes a big difference to the quality of peoples lives.
As you are always forking your buying power reduces drastically!

It will not make the world greener, except for those theiving basterds in "government"!

Dream Weaver

Thats where the contention is though, I don't believe the gov't give a **** about the environment and by charging £75 its enough to generate them a huge amount of money per year in extra tax, but its a relatively small annual amount that 99% of parents will choose to just pay it and continue using car on the school run.

It will do nothing to prevent any sort of global warming that the tree huggers believe exists, but it will do a lot to bump up the gov't coffers so they can dish more money out to the lazy *******s that dont work.

I'm not in a position to comment yet - my lad is only 1 so I haven't been through the school issues yet - our local primary is about half a mile away so I'm hoping he will get in there and I can walk him to school and back each day, but I would imagine the place will be given to some local pikey kid from the next town as is usually the case.

If that does happen, the next primary school is probably 6-7 miles away so I dont know what we would do then.

GC8WRX

Its just another way of ripping people off!

I live in a rural area, and the public transport is crap, there is no choice but to drive your kids to school round here, so if your on a low wage its a big blow for your family, 75 quid is alot of money!

Soon driving will be for the rich only, which takes the pi55!!!!!!

Dream Weaver

Pete you have a very black and white outlook on life, but maybe that is down to where you live and you maybe have decent transport links? I dont know what Worthing is like, but I live on the fringe of the Yorkshire Dales and I have friends that live in farmhouses in the middle of nowhere, and I mean it is a 3 mile trek up a rough track just to get to their house!!

This sort of housing isn't uncommon where I live, and in places around Settle etc you can literally live miles and miles from anywhere, the local high school could be 15 miles away.

So you would be quite happy to send a 12 year old girl walking 15 miles each day on her own?

I would certainly never let that happen if I lived in that location.

In areas like where I am we just dont have the infrastructure or public transport to cope with any of these proposals for people that live in the surrounding areas.

There are some houses out on the A682 which is Britain's most dangerous road (Google it) and a road I use often. The 2 mile stretch from the houses to the closest village doesn't have any pavements, it is used as a racetrack by bikers and it doesn't have a bus route.

Last week I witnessed a terrible 100mph bike crash on that stretch and the bikers body nearly arrived in the back of our car (somehow he was OK, god knows how as I saw his body flying through the air right behind our car!!!).

This is actually quite a residential area and leads down into the village where I am, but the nearest high school is probably 7-8 miles away in the next town. There are no bus routes so what are any of the children supposed to do, bearing in mind you are classing anyone at high school (12/13) as responsbile enough to walk to/from school?

If I lived in those houses on the outskirts I wouldn't want my lad walking down that road.

And I imagine this £75 charge would not be policed at the school gates, it would be charged to anyone with children of school age or you just move the congestion problem along.

Its stealth tax however you want to dress it up.

RUDDY

for 75 pound a year the school cartaker can get in his N reg diesel tranny minibus and go and pick the kids up himself! that at least i would consider fair!
400 pound a year to tax your car so you can drive on public roads and then another 75 pound to tax your car so you can drive on the public road to go to a public school! there are some very stupid council people around! infact i reckon council workers are failed police men! lol!
when can i tax these *******s for not picking up my bin ontime and letting the roads and parks get in a state?? if your an average man working for yourself or a small company youve got no chance at a decent comfortable life anymore! wont be long before you will have to pay to have a slash again! except it wont be spend a penny it will be spend a tenner!