Martin2005

So you have some better and more reliable stats to back up your arguement then?

YOU ARE THE ONE SPINNING HERE!!!

PeteBrant

It's not a government figure - The recent independant Lords review agreed with this figure. But said that there was no effect on GDP per capita.

That is, also the economy benefits by $6 Billion, we as individuals are not any better (or worse) off because of it

PeteBrant

Its not a government figure.

The BCS is respected the world over.
You can only see a doctor on the day you phone up? What a ****ing nighmare - Where's my 2 week wait?
Yup they have made some fairly elementary and stupid mistakes in some areas, no doubt.

stilover

I'm not saying I want a 2 week wait. What I am saying though is that it would be nice to phone up on say a Monday and ask to see a Doctor on one of the other days of the week. Not everything is a emergency. If it was I'd go to the Hospital.

I need time to book time off work. Saying to your Boss that you need to go to the Doctors, but you can't say what day/time that would be is of no interest to him.

stilover

Maybe you're just easily led. Blinkered with no thought processes of your own. The Government have 2 words you type of person.

"Labour voter"

You seem to to belive everything you're told.

By the way, you still owe me £50.

Martin2005

That's one way of twisting things around I suppose .

Easily lead LOL, I'm not the weak minded one



BTW I'm about as unblinkered (as you put it) as you can get, you see I look for facts and don't simply follow the lastest Daily Mail headline. And I'm not sure what Labour on any other political inclination has got to do with using the best facts available to form an opinion, still I suppose having no facts at all and basing an arguement on a fairly shallow gut reaction is better!!

BargainGirl

Improving hospitals and schools does not come cheap I suppose?

Martin2005

As someone who once protronisingly said to me that I didn't understand politics or the world, and 'would only watch the news if there was naked girls on it', I find it amusing that you keep using serious and grown up terms like Nu Labia, and cyclops and Flash!!!


Oh the irony

OllyK

They've had 11 years to change it, that they haven't is absolutely their fault, it can't be anybody elses.

PeteBrant

Course they haven't.

You can't change it back can you. You can't say to dentists - "Oh we are going to let you charge what you like for work" and then take it all back a 10 years later when they have entire businesses built around the new legislation.

It doesnt work like that, the cost in compensation would be huge.

Once something goes into the private sector, it doesn't come back into public ownership except for extraordinary circumstances

No, the blame for the death of the NHS dentist lies squarely with the Tories, any attempt to blame it on labour is laughable.

PeteBrant

Right so what you want to is to be able to phone up a GP and tell him when you want an appointment, and not for him to tell you when he is available. (which is , incidently, exactly what Labour are proposing in the new GP contract).

This sort of service does not come for free. I don't see how you have this kind of service without paying for it. Through taxes.

Reduce the tax you pay, reduce the service you get. It's inescapable logic.

OllyK

Your 2 week wait happens because you ring up today at 08:50, 10 mins before the surgery opens to get an engaged tone, you keep rining every 5 minutes until 10.30, to be told all the slots for today are gone. You can't book for tomorrow so you have to try all over again tomorrow.

Doctor's stats - anybody making an appointment is seen the same day.

Reality - it can take days and wastes huge amounts of time to actually get an appointment in the first place.

PeteBrant

Ok, so assuming you are correct in this summary (which I think depends entirely on your locale - I have not once failed to get an appointment on the day in the last 7 years or so, But then where the kids are in London is a nightmare, but even then it take a few days - I can remember 20 years ago it taking weeks).

How do you go about improving the service with less revenue? (assuming you subscribe to the "we pay too much tax" argument)

Simon C

Don't bank on that either, the new contracts are a complete PIA. I know quite a few under these rules that would be working for free.

That had 3 choices, take a long holiday, put up with it or retire. Guess what most are doing.

Yup, alot are leaving, inc my dad, why should he work for free and take a 40k hit.

Terminator X

iTrader: (7)

That's worth an infraction for trolling Pete

TX.

Terminator X

iTrader: (7)

Good grief man! Does the rest of Europe feel our pain on Gordons stealth taxes too?

TX.

PeteBrant

As I have already said- In comparison to the rest of Europe, we are a fairly low tax economy.

Go look up the tax burden in Sweden, Denmark, Belguim, France, Austria, Norway, Italy, Holland, Czech republic, Hungary & Poland.

Terminator X

iTrader: (7)

Ah, can I expect same shortly as my car tax has shot up?

TX.

Terminator X

iTrader: (7)

Spend less money in the RIGHT places. It's really not that hard ...

TX.

PeteBrant

How does the increase in VED relate to the privatisation and subsequent relucatance to renationalise Dentistry?
Well, it is pretty tricky - Proven by the complete and utter abandonment of any promises to reduce tax by the Tories - Including the abolishment of the 10p rate.

Like I said, I don't doubt improvements can be made in how the money is spent - But you do need to spend it if you want to maintain, or improve public services.

Luan Pra bang

Stop paying 60 billion into Europe a year, Save the 10 billion spent on Iraq save some of the 161 billion spent on the jobless and workshy.

The total health sector accounts for 104 billion a year we could easily add 50% to that by using our resouces better and not throwing money away.
We spend 30 billion on interest alone thats almost 1/3 of the total amount spent on health. Why exactly have NU labia increased instead of decreased our debt during this period of massive growth in the ecomomy ?

With regards to Europe remember that you don't have to be a part of Europe to be part of the free trade agreement. So why do we **** money into it every year.

Luan Pra bang

The reason Tories cannot promise any tax cuts is that Labour are now commited to overspending and it is not that simple or fast to reverse or change that.
Labour are still blaming the tories 12 years later.

Martin2005

Where do you get you're numbers from?

The latest figures show that over the ten-year period 1993-2002 inclusive, the UK paid over to EU Institutions... gross, cumulatively: £104 billion.
In those same ten years the UK received back, cumulatively: £64 billion.
So the UK's net contribution over that ten-year period was £40 billion, or an average of £4 billion per year.
The 2002 net contribution was £4.3 billion.

Now I know these numbers a few years out of date but I doubt they have gone up 10 fold!!

'£103 Billion for workshy' - again this is a gross distortion of the truth, the VAST majority of the welfare / social security budget is paid out in pensions.

The Iraq war - we have already spent this money so how can we save it!!


Let use 'facts' rather than feeling in future

Geezer

I think NL have misled voters over certain things, and made some mistakes. But then again, that's par for the course for any government. The Tories certainly did it, and will do it again when they next get into power (which, I suspect will be the next general election).

I think people just get sick of the same government. Labour aren't doing a bad job. I don't sem to be any worse off now than I was under the Tories, lose a bit in some places, gain in others.

My experience of the NHS has been unchanged in the times I have had to call upon their services from Tory to Labour control. Do not think for one minute that it would all be a bed or roses under the Tories.

Education? Well, the literacy of people we get from the eduction system does seem to be low, I have to say, but in other aspects they seem as good (or as bad depending on your point of view) as they have ever been. Class sizs were big when I was a lad, but I don't think anyone suffered. The remarks about having to wait for Asif are vacuous in the extreme, and show more about the posters choice of media and gullibility then the real situation.

Crime and police, well, you can say that there are more police now than in 1997, but where are they? Never see any on the beat, and it's not as if they are all driving round either. I really don't know what has happened to the police, but they are not as effective as they used to. Quote figures unti lthe cows come home, but police on the ground makes a big difference, just ask New York.

I do think Labour have let us down on transport. They seem to have made a bit of a mess of it, and the transport system does nothing to encourage people to use whilst they hike prices for VED and leave the duty on fuel at a ridiculous level. I'm not at all convinced that the Tories would have done it much differently though, 'green' being in vogue at present.

I think Labour have become stale, not they necessarily are raping the tax paying population, and change of administration will bring about a brief respite in the perceived problems we now have. I say perceived, because generally, that's what most of it is, the media are hungry for wow! stories, and the sheep like British public soak it up.

Then just wait a year or two before the "Tories are shafting us again!" threads start........

Geezer

PeteBrant

Where are people getting these numbers?????

We pay in about £12.6 billion Gross, and with rebate and CAP etc we end up paying in about £4.6 billion net.

Global Vision - Perspectives

Really I do wish people would actually look into the absolute crap spouted by papers on all sides of the political divide.

You can't save whats already been spent.

We spend £3 billion a year roughly. Short of pulling out entirely, I'm not sure how to save money.


I'm sure there could be some more initiatives to get people into work
Brilliant! Problem solved! We can "easily" half our NHS expenditure by "using our resources better"


Any details on that?

In 1997, we spent £65.7 on our health service, which was about the lowest in Europe.

Today we spend about £105 billion, which is about average.

Presumably it is not just us throwing money away, but also every othe rnation in Europe.

Because public services were criminaly underfunded.

Midlife......

iTrader: (2)

Pete

Enlighten me...how *did* the tories end NHS dentistry ?

Shaun

OllyK

Given the choice between paying less tax and having a worse service or paying more tax to have a better service, I'd go with paying less and downgrade the service. For the services that are important to me, I'll then fund private alternatives if I need more than the basic level.

PeteBrant

Margaret Thatcher gave the green light for NHS opticians and Dentists to take private patients (hence you have to pay for an Eye test these days - Why work for the NHS when you can earn much more privately). Plus the Tories sanctioned the closing of the colleges that supplied almost all the UK dentists. Hence we have a chronic shortage of good denitsts - Thus we have lots of people able to come in and open private practises.

What about those unable to fund a private alternative?

This is you typical old school Tory thinking "I'm alright, Jack".

Modern conservatism is thankfully somewhat more compassionate.