Kieran_Burns

iTrader: (1)

Have you guys heard of Tax Freedom Day?

from here: Adam Smith Institute - the free-market think tank

This is the intro:
The UK's Tax Freedom Day will fall on June 2 in 2008. That means that average Brits are spending more than five months of the year working for the Chancellor, rather than working for themselves. Government spending is set to reach £600 billion – £10,000 for person in the UK, and twice as much as in 1997. If public spending had only grown in line with inflation since then, we could have abolished income tax, corporation tax, capital gains tax and inheritance tax by now, leaving the taxpayer £200 billion better off. When you factor in government borrowing the picture is even worse – Tax Freedom Day does not come until June 14. Click here to visit our Tax Freedom Day website.

Martin2005

Pete, wow I've missed a lot today haven't I?

Are you still taking on 'all-comers' on this thread?

You use whatever stats and facts you like matey, most people on here hate the Government (and always have) and no amount of facts are going to change that.

If the government had cured all ill's and done everything absolsutely right, then the majority on here would still be attacking them, you see it's not about what they do, it's about which party they are. It's shallow and in my view pathetic!

Kieran_Burns

iTrader: (1)

Just to point out: that site shows the total tax burden for each person is approximately 42% of their income.

Oh, and that the original name of the thread is that the total tax burden is 51% HIGHER not total...

Go look at the graphs, it makes interesting reading. They have been doing this calcluation for a long time

(p.s. thanks to whoever gave me the thumbs up and a to the goit that negged me )

PeteBrant

A history of Tax Freedom Day

It's not really changed much has it. Tax freedom day, that is.

I mean 2nd of June is about "average" by the looks of things.

I wonder what it is for the countries in Europe that pay over the average amount of tax, as opposed to the UK, that pays under. Must run into July for places like France or Switzerland.
But then they have the Best transport links, the best Health services, less crime etc.

Kieran_Burns

iTrader: (1)

'cos you can't be arsed to go look for yourself

PeteBrant

Hmm.. Seen how they calculate that 42%?

THey include tobacco, Alchohol, properties abroad. It doesn't include tax credits, Child benefit (which every parent gets).

Anyway. from this very site...

Tax Freedom Day technical information

Kieran_Burns

iTrader: (1)

[quote=PeteBrant;7870721]Hmm.. Seen how they calculate that 42%?

THey include tobacco, Alchohol, properties abroad. It doesn't include tax credits, Child benefit (which every parent gets).

Anyway. from this very site...

Tax Freedom Day technical information

Actually Pete they do take into account the credits - go look more closely

Transfer payments. One point that has been raised in the calculation of Tax Freedom Day, is that it does not take into account the fact that a large number of people receive various transfers from the government — child benefit, unemployment benefit, and so on. Should these really be included in the tax burden? Are they not really a kind of “negative tax”?

The answer to these two questions must be that transfers should indeed be included when calculating the tax burden. First of all, they are a tax in the sense that they involve the government taking money away, at least from those who pay relatively more in taxes than they receive in transfer payments. Second, even if we all received roughly the same sum in transfers as we pay in taxes, we would still incur the not inconsiderable administrative costs connected with such a turnaround of money. For these reasons, it is feasible to argue that all tax revenue should be included when calculating the tax burden.

PeteBrant

And then

So... Does that mean they do or they don't?

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

Pete, you can argue all you want about the tax burden and you raise some valid points, however its being muddied by the increases on fuel, i.e. the bit the producers get and its knock ons such as food, plus the f*ck ups the banks have made necessitating a rate rise on mortgages on desperately overpriced properties.

We all like some spare cash to enjoy ourselves but at the moment its all we can do to pay for the basics and not go into the red, Mr Brown deserves some stick but as I have said all the blame for the current climate can be laid at his door, though we do feel like we are getting a kicking whilst we are down when additional burdens are handed to us with no warning , like the increase in VED for older cars, ok new monster engined things getting hammered is a no brainer but a 2001 Mondeo getting caned is just unfair, it was worth very little, now its worth nothing, ditto the 10% trick on the low earners.

Fuel seems to go up 1p or more per litre per week, the Darling will stick a bit more on in the Autumn, f*ck green for now, lets just keep the shop open.

warrenm2

"When you factor in government borrowing the picture is even worse – Tax Freedom Day does not come until June 14" That is Day 173 out of 365 or 47.4% of the year paying tax....

kingofturds

iTrader: (1)

Luan Pra bang

You don't think perhaps Lying to sell us on the idea of a war in Iraq, Spending 700 million on the dome, having teenagers murdered every week, , a failure to stop us having the higest teen pregnancy rate in Europe, denying us the right to a referendum on the EU constitution, Peter Mandleson, cash for honours. cherie blair, Ridiculous VED rates, Green Taxes, Increasing Public sector pensions while the private sector suffers, corruption in the EU and a failure in the NHS and public transport WHILE spending almost 20k per worker in the UK per year is perhaps why we hate Nu Labia. THis list could have gone on much longer as well.

jasey

And we'll be the first country in history to have to postpone the Olympics by 3 years so we can complete the Stadia etc. (Having spent 48 quazillion over the original 8 Billion budget).

But it's because they're Labour - not because they're a bunch of inept lying cheating retards !

Brit_in_Japan

Who are the UK Taxpayers Alliance when they're at home. Might they have a political axe to grind perchance?

Andrew Allum - Founding Chairman
"From 1998 to 2002 Andrew served as a Conservative member of Westminster City Council."

Matthew Elliott - Chief Executive
"Until he started at the Tax Payers Alliance, he was Special Adviser to Conservative MEP Timothy Kirkhope and for Conservative MP Bill Cash."

Florence Heath - Co-founder of UK Taxpayers Alliance
"Florence led the student Conservative association at Imperial College for two years as well as the Europe-wide European Young Conservatives, and served on the committees of the local Conservative associations, Conservative Friends of Gibraltar and the cross-party Youth for a Free Europe."

I could go on. Not exactly unbiased is it?

Another way of looking at the overall percentage of income taken as tax (including National Insurance, VAT etc) would be to look here:-
A history of Tax Freedom Day

If you look at that you'll see the day has been getting later recently, but is still less than most of the time when the Conservatives were in power in the '80's. Inconvenient things these statistics eh?

Kieran_Burns

iTrader: (1)

That'll be the web-site I linked to earlier and the graphs that are available further up this page?

Martin2005

I can be absolutely certain that if a Tory government had done any of these thing (subjective though most of them are), then the SN population would be lining up to defend them!

Luan Pra bang

If you look from 1998 when tony had his first full year in charge tax freedom day moves later and later. In the 90's unter the tories it came alot earlier than it did once labour came to power.


The labour government has spent nearly 20k per worker in the UK and added to the national debt at the same time.
450000000000 is the tax take which represents £15,000 per worker per year It does not take a genius to work out that spending £5000 more than you earn is going to mean either massive increase in the tax revenue in the future, or massvie inflation to reduce the size of the debts.
In the background of an ageing popluation how can they justify some of the higest spending per worker in the world and combine it with rubbish public services ?
Also if tax is only 37.5% where does the rest of the 450 billion come from ?

.

Luan Pra bang

But the Tory party did not do those things, and trying to defend them would be impossible. Do you really think the tory party would be spending 20 thousand pounds per worker if they were in power ? Where does this money go ?

PeteBrant

At texpense of public services. Which had the lowest investment in Europe pretty much. And when you say "a lot earlier" we are talking 1 or 2 or 3 days

The national debt was £44 billion in the 80's. In relation to tax revenue, borrowing was higher under the tories than it is under Labour.
Are you talking GOvernment borrowing here or tax take? because 450000000000 is wrong on both counts. I think it would be clearer if you just said billions or millions rather than writing zeros.
Luan, we aren't spending "the highest spending per worker". Where are you getting this from?

And public services are much better than they were 10 years ago much, much better.


Buisinesses, Corporation tax etc.

Luan, you have had 3 independant sites (one of which is the Adam Smith Institute, and also the tax payers reform site - neoither of which is pro labour) telling you that Britian is a low tax economy and that the Burden is around 37.5%. Yet still you insist on this blinkered view that it isn't.

You are conveniently ingnoring the facts and replacing them with some made up figures you ar eplucking out of thin air to suit your obvious political opinion.

borat52

I think the great leveller this time will be the house price crash. As soon as people start getting repossesed they'll soon start to get annoyed with paying tax to fund spongers (and by spongers I mean the huge chunk of the civil service who are paid massive salaries and pensions for doing useless jobs as well as the people on dole/diability/HB).

The Tories are just saying they'll keep to spending pledges - they have to say that otherwise labour will cry 'the poor will all die of starvation if they get in'. Look at Boris, he's already pealing back plans for the congestion charge.

Income Tax and NI won't change much under a conservative governement but plans for spending go out of the window in a recession, and make no mistake we're heading straight into one in the UK mainly due to duff inflation figures leading to low interest rates and a false housing boom making us all feel rich and care little about the waste that was going on in the public sector. thank you Gordon

PeteBrant

Please don't tell me that the Tory party was an error free white than white party. I mean last time I checked, Labour hadn't actually has someone sent to prison for perjury, Not just one, but two senior MPs.

And I seem to remeber the ERM debacle, 15% interest rates. Inflation at 8%, Unemployment at 3.5 million, public services being absolutely crippled, the auctioning off of vital public serivces, like gas and water. The Maastrict treaty not getting a referendum, etc etc

So don't pretend that the Trories are paragons of truth and justice, because they aren't.

Yes. And shall I tell you why? Because the Tory party has committed to Labours spending plans if they get into power.

r32

Public services better? Which ones are those then?

PeteBrant

Is this groundhog day?

Compared to 10-15 year ago?
All of them.

Luan Pra bang

No we are talking 11 days from 1994 to 1999


Not really Tories reinged their borrowing which enabled it to turn into a surples in 1998. Even though Tony just got into power then we know it was Tory policy that enable that to happen.


Total tax take. On wiki national insurance take is 90 billion and some where else said NI was 1/5 of government tax take so I did the Maths and got 450 billion what do you think is the real figure.

Find one nation spending more than 20k per worker I couldn't. The buget has forecast net borrowing to hit 36.4 billion in 2007-2008 Quite a hike from a surplus in 1998. From the office of national statistics

March 07 7.1 billion
MArch 08 10.1 billion
march 09 36.4 billion

This is not sustainable.





The figure varies from 37.5 to 42% but I take into account the total tax take
including the taxes placed on business' and fines levied on people. The governmnet has found a plethora of ways to disguise how much cash it takes from the public and I include this in my estimates. 23% NI plus 23% income tax goves you 46% to start with.

All facts I have are from the office of national statistics, Wikipedia or other reputable websites. You cannot possibley think that spending is at a healthy level.

PeteBrant

So that's 3 years of Tory rule - What about the other 15? I think you'll find the average is around June 2nd In fact, possbly later

Yes really. Public sector borrowing peaked in 1997 @ 43.8% of GDP,( the highest since the 80's) It is currently at 36.7%


National Statistics Online.

The "Surplus" you are referring to is public sector For that year in isolation In other words, the net debt was still £43 billion.


Again, you're mixing public sector borrowing with net debt.

Look here.



While public sector borrowing for that year reduces or goes into surplus, so net borrowing is affected.

So as you can see from the grap h- Whilst public sector borrowing is in surplus, so net borring reduces.

We were never in net surplus in 1997 as you are insinuating.



Again, we didn't have a surplus in 1998.

Why ar eyou including fines? How are you calculating them? How are you decideing how much cash is taken through "hidden" means.

Why have you got NI at 23%?
Why have you got Income tax at 23%?

Even the most anti labour organisations have total tax take at 42% (which is extremely debatebale seeing as they include things like tobacco) And even they say Britian is a low tax economy .

Spending is the minimum it can be and maintain decent services.

Geezer

Wel, for starters, income tax is not at 23%, it's 20% for the majority of the country. Even then, it's 20% of their taxable income, so the figure is even less. The same applies for NI, and it's 11%. You cannot count the employers contirbution, you don't pay it.

Geezer

Luan Pra bang

As an employer I do pay it and this does have a direct effect on how much a company can afford to pay someone. As far as I know people who own business' are still members of the public and their contributions still count.

PeteBrant

You are paying as a company though (with the benefits of corporation tax versus personal tax, plus caliming back VAT)- not an individual. It has no bearing on the personal tax burden.

Bodgit

recheck the title "UK Tax Burden 51% higher" so even corporation tax is valid in this arguement, sorry debate.

Luan Pra bang

Recent history shows the Tories reducing tax when they were last in power.
Recent history shows Labour increasing taxes


Net debt has gone up to 530 billion, 100 billion more than under the Tories
and 30 billion up in one year. This is not good news irrespective of GDP percentage.

A surplus allows you to pay of some of the debt. Under Nu labia the debt keeps getitng bigger even taking into account their ridiculous inflation figures.




NO I am not look here



I said 1998 and yes we were



The government has used methods other than taxes to raise cash form the public this is a crafty way to take the ege off how much of our money they take. The fact is even allowing for inflation tax has gone up by 51% since 1997, 294billion to 517 billion


That is a ridiculous staement you seem to think the Government is perfect I suggest you take your rose tinted specs off.