PeteBrant

I think given recent events they have to make some movement with regards to "Listening".

They have an awful lot of MPs ****ting themselves that they will be out of a job come 2010, hence the back benchers have suddenly becaome extremely powerful.

dunx

iTrader: (3)

I agree that gas-guzzlers are open to abuse by the Government, but they pay at the pumps.

I have a lovely 2002 gas guzzler, but as I only do 6500 miles a year in it, is it worthy of a massive VED hike ? Grossly unfair, what message does this send to the "yoof" of today ?

DunxC

NACRO

Buy a more environmentally friendly car or risk being retrospectively and figuratively buggered?

Jerome

I'm talking about the retrospectic tax hike. How could owners affected have known that their band F cars would be retrospectively lumped in with the band Gs?

And I mean classic cars in general, not just classic shape Imprezas.

scoobynutta555

The message will probably be the older generation (us) aren't wasting a finite resourse with low mpg cars, and choking kids with their catless cars

Quite a positive message I think.

Regards unfair taxes, sorry but do you know any fair taxes? What's fair to you will be someone elses unfair. You have the option to purchase a car that falls in a lower tax band if you can't afford it/don't want to pay it.

PeteBrant

The hikes for cars bought after 2006 isn't the problem - Its the re-banding and hike for cars bought between 2001-2006 that is causing outrage.

At the time of purchase, no one had a clue what government were planning, and to say "well you should have known" is not good enough.

Imagine if the government stuck a £10 charge on every binful of rubbish you created between 2001 and 2006, and justified it with "well you should have seen this coming at the time..."

PeteBrant

It is an unfair tax because it is retrospective. You were not armed with the facts that are pertinent now when you made the purchase then.

This detail changes everything.


Of course it is a completely proper way to discourage people that are buying new cars (i.e., post 2006) from purchasding heavy polluters.

Jerome

So if the chancellor suddenly decided even cars as low as band A should also be retrospectively hammered with a £400 tax rate, that would be just and fair...?

As for me having the option to sell my car and buy one in a lower tax bracket you are absolutely right, I do have that option. I also have the option to vote these tax grabbing charlatans out at the next election.

scoobynutta555

As I've already said, you've known for 2 months have you not? The main reason for this is pollution (allegedly) and for this to have a considerable short term effect then it must affect all cars that have been environmentally graded, is post 2001 cars.

Think some people are getting a bit carried away with the whole retrospective thing here. If it was a true retrospective tax the gov't would send you a bill for an extra £250 quid per year you've already owned the car since 2001. The fact remains, you'll only be paying the extra money for future ownership, not past ownership.

Regarding the bands, the gov't have added additional grades to try and reflect the vast choice of cars out there, and have concentrated on the heaviest polluting vehicles. I don't see too many people with low polluting cars whose tax will be going down over the next few years complaining?

scoobynutta555

And you seriously think the GREEN Tory party will listen to you sympathetically driving around in one of the most polluting cars out there?

But the Chancellor won't do that. We could argue hypothetical suggestions here all day, no matter how bizarre.

Again, a true retrospective tax would charge you tax retrospectively, from what I see here it doesn't. It's a tax on future ownership, they won't be sending out bills for £250 pa each year you've previously owned your polluting car

PeteBrant

I think this is an important part of how the next few days will play out - Will the Tory party risk damaging thier green credentials and press for a rethinking of VED rates.

Thats only part of the story though, Lib Dems would also have to call for a rethink too - And I would be surprised to see that happen.

In other words, the number of Back Benchers it will take to make Brown sweat, depends to a large extent on the position of the opposition parties.

Luan Pra bang

Of course its retrospective. People won't suddenly bin 02 plate cars and stop driving them they will just drop in price to a point where the cost of tax every year is offset by the low value of the car. The retrospective aspect does not impact pollution at all as petrol is the factor there. It just means people will be buying 02 plate cars for .50 pence and still driving the same number of miles unless petrol goes up accordingly.

scoobynutta555

Nothing would surprise me with this weak and listless government. Even if they do capitulate with this new policy in an attempt at appeasement for the masses they'll look like incompetent morons.

Cameron driving around in a Prius (when not cycling) with a windmill on his house won't suddenly change his policy in favour for a minority of high band drivers.

scoobynutta555

The tax collected is NOT RETROSPECTIVE! The bands have been altered to show what FUTURE taxes will be levied. Retrospectively, some cars have had their bandings changed. You'll have 'til 2010 to sort out what tax you want to pay by what car you drive.

Dream Weaver

The problem is, it really hits the value of second hand cars for the average Joe, and the wealthy won't really notice it. Yes, people will now move to more economical cars to try and battle the VED hikes (and then the gov't will just up the VED when everyone moves over as they have done with diesel!! ), but those people that bought a new car in say 2006, and were hoping to be able to trade it in for £XXX next year will now have much less equity in the car they run and will end up having to buy something £2k cheaper or spend more cash.

My dad is a prime example, bought a Jaguar X-Type Sport thing a couple of years back, and if he sells it now it will be worth peanuts, probably £1-2k less than he expected it to be worth when he bought at the time.

It doesn't even come down to affordability either, its another principle matter for me. I've just bought a Focus ST as my weekend toy, it was going to be an Impreza STI but I refuse to pay £455 a year in road tax, £310 is bad enough for the ST but almost £500 is taking the ****, and completely destroys any insurance savings I have waited for 10 years to get as insurance and VED would be over £1k for an Impreza!!

The worst hit will be people trying to sell an April 2001 Impreza P1 vs somebody selling a early 01 model.

scoobynutta555

The majority of money you'll have lost on the car will be from 'natural' depreciation. I lost over £14k on a P1 a few years back and this tax wasn't anywhere on the radar. I'd have thought with the very high prices of fuel second hand prices would have plummeted anyway.

FlightMan

Of course you're right. We are the cash cow that the Govt keeps running too, whenever they need another billion or two. Why are we questioning them?

You bought your P1 presumably knowing that you were going to loose a large chunk of money in depreciation? You made an informed choice to do so. When people bought their cars, post March 2001, they also made an informed choice. Now, up to 7 years later, the Govt have retrospectively changed the playing field on which those choices were made.

I don't know what sort of house you live in, but let's say its your typical SN members house, 6 bedrooms, pool and a heli-pad.

Along comes HMG, and says: " Ooo, these large houses, with pools and heli-pads aren't environmentally friendly. They cost a lot to heat, the pools are full of nasty chemicals, and those heli-pads, well have you heard the noise! Anyone who has purchased a house since March 2001, your council tax is going to double. We'll be nice, and give you until 2010 to sell it, for a more environmentally friendly 3 bedroom terrace. That's fair."

You see where this all ends? Chaos.

scoobynutta555

If I had a house with a helipad I could well afford a doubling of my council tax.

As above, the vast majority depreciation you will suffer right now is the current high pump price and natural depreciation, not on a tax that hasn't been introduced yet. In any case, you've had 2 months to sell your car if you're that concerned.

Anyone buying a 4x4 car that was in the highest banding for pollution in 2001 also made an informed choice on running costs/depreciation.

Lastly, it's lose not loose

Dream Weaver

Its not a question of whether somebody can afford it or not, its a question of morals and principle and the fact that the government can just decide to shaft vehicle owners for something they purchased up to 7 years ago.

The new VED rates should have applied to new vehicles only from 2010, that gives everybody a fair chance to know what they are buying into, and to decide whether they want a new car from that period onwards.

But, ******** Brown needs money quickly, so why not apply he VED to the biggest group of cars going, those from 01 onwards.

You keep bigging up the Labour gov't and bum licking Brown if you prefer, we all know what's really going on with the gov't.

scoobynutta555

Giving up on this a bit now. I've highlighed several times now the main flaws in your 'argument'. Re-read my posts and some of what I've said may start to sink in. And save the juvenile comments for a less eloquent and learned 'opponent'.

TheHappyAngler

It would appear that both sides of the argument have pointed at the major flaws in each others arguments. However the blinkers and ear defenders are being worn on both sides. With a lot of foot stamping "I am right as I have a huge brain so I must be" rather than appreciating that both sides actually have some good points.

However there are some that are quite clearly being led by the nose down to the slaughter house. In a few years they'll be stood wondering why no one is complaining about an issue that effects them. As the rest go "hmm you should have spotted that coming"

douglasb

So if I sell my band F car before the tax rises next year and buy a lower emission vehicle then I take a hit on the second hand price. However what is the buyer of my car going to do? They're not going to stick it in a museum; they've got a bargain car and they're going to continue driving it.

Assuming that a huge majority of the cars affected by higher VED aren't going to be scrapped but will continue to be used, please explain how this helps the environment.

scoobynutta555

I wasn't led by the nose anywhere when I was against a blanket smoking ban in pubs and 90% of Scoobynet wasn't. It's a facile point that because you have an opinion on one thing you don't complain about gov't policy in other areas.

TheHappyAngler

It doesn't. Your initial purchaser gets hits with the out of line(to previous levels) depreciation and makes a larger loss than he/she would have been expecting. The second owner gets a car that is suddenly in their price bracket and can justify the tax as the car is significantly cheaper than they were expecting and the new price offsets the increase in tax.

Your initial purchaser gets hit in the pocket and the rest of the system realigns itself from there on.

scoobynutta555

You may suffer a hit when you sell now, but that will be offset by the much lower tax you'll have to pay both with the road fund licence and fuel duty.

These cars will cover less mileage, therefore less emissions.

douglasb

Exactly! But Brown/Darling are portraying this as a green tax. It isn't; it's just a cynical way of raising more money but wrapped in a green blanket.

(this was a response to HappyAngler)

scoobynutta555

Undoubtably it is a tax raising measure, however this is not the only purpose of these new taxes. Band C and under cars will be the same or cheaper to tax until 2011 (maybe £5 more in some cases). There does seem to be a good case for saying they are trying to clean up emissions whilst obviously taking more in tax initially. However, that's no predicition that they will always keep that tax model, and I wouldn't think for a moment they'll not trickle down the bands with higher tax as the higher bands get less top heavy.

Cynical or not, it is a green tax.

scooby-tc

iTrader: (2)

The VED issue should be based on year of manufacture and not date of 1st registration in the UK as that also hits a lot of older imported cars

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

Ok, I get the green thing, I can live with that but they should make it apply to new cars only, with inflationary rises for older cars, they can use the 2.5 % figure, would be happy with that but an extra 100 quid on a whim is not fair, ok I can a afford it but I shouldn't have to, it should be in line with what the VED was when I bought it plus a reasonable increase.

Whats next, increasing my Council tax from 2 grand to 10 grand, being a tax paying law abiding citizen I have to pay it, no option, no right of reply, just pay up which to me, isn't the actions of a democratically elected government.

I understand NACROS points, most are valid but you need to see things from others point of view, I earn good money and am in a fortunate situation but have kids so have to work to a budget as do most of the country and if I am feeling the squeeze I sympathise with those with big mortgages and less income.

As for not having a car, ok, yes I get it but people need time to adapt not just be told to stop, its taken what 50 years for widespread car ownership by the average man, it cant be undone overnight, the whole infrastructure is based on cars, just try having kids and doing without one, everything is a car journey. Ditto shopping, try moving a weeks groceries for a family of five without a car.

I am doing my bit, have ordered a new bike for the work commute, currently driving like miss Daisy to see what I can get from my Gas Guzzler, 34 mpg at the moment which I don't think makes me a pariah, the green movement hold to much sway, usually they are single Lesbians that live in central London so dont need a car, no kids and they eat Lentils from the local Lesbian wholefood cooperative, trouble is we cant all live like that and to keep real society and industry going, at the moment the real people need to burn dead things in dirty engines.

FlightMan

It's a tax raising tax, just like all taxes. GB PLC is in the sh!te, and Brown knows it. You can call it a green tax, stealth tax, whatever the hell you like. It's a tax.

Why did the Govt pick March 2001 for this tax to apply? Because they've calculated that is the point at which they get the money they need. If it was really about saving the planet, they'd have levied this against all cars. It's a cynical move to grab more cash, nothing more, nothing less.