To those who don't agree with the return of the death penalty...
29 June 2008, 10:40 PM
#61
I only replied directly to your statement, that you don't care what happens to someone who says they did something they did not do. I was not talking about the case being discussed, as nor were you in that comment. What I was saying, is that if someone lies about committing a crime, most likely because they are mentally unsound, then I think killing them is harsh, when ultimately their only crime is lying.
29 June 2008, 10:41 PM
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David he already has convictions for rape, attempted rape and sexual assault of children. As far as I am concerned he should have been killed a long time ago.
As for those talking about miscarriages of justice, you can't have a miscarriage of justice when the conviction is beyond all reasonable doubt and in fact the defendant has admitted to the crimes. This is when the death penalty can safely be applied and no one can say oh but you might have the wrong person.
As for those talking about miscarriages of justice, you can't have a miscarriage of justice when the conviction is beyond all reasonable doubt and in fact the defendant has admitted to the crimes. This is when the death penalty can safely be applied and no one can say oh but you might have the wrong person.
29 June 2008, 10:47 PM
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I will also add I believe Jamie Bulger's killers should have been given the death penalty despite the fact they were 'children' themselves. Anyone who commits murder or sexual assault on a child should be removed from existence.
Last edited by Bravo2zero_sps; 29 June 2008 at 10:56 PM.
29 June 2008, 11:37 PM
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There's an awful lot of blood lust on this thread. To those who are so willing to see our nation executing people I ask you this.
What is our criminal justice system for, justice or revenge?
It is no coincidence that virtually every civilized nation on earth abolished the death penalty decades ago, why, because it doesn't work, it achieves nothing and prevents nothing.
If you believe in absolutes then the death penalty cannot be justified, and I'm sure in our worst nightmares imagine truly dreadful crimes (like the ones highlighted here), but what does execution actually achieve? Does it make anyone safer? Does it make our country a better place?
I'm all for very tough punishment, life meaning life and all that, but the state killing someone is just the most hideous spectacle, and one that would further erode the moral well being of this country.
My thoughts anyway
What is our criminal justice system for, justice or revenge?
It is no coincidence that virtually every civilized nation on earth abolished the death penalty decades ago, why, because it doesn't work, it achieves nothing and prevents nothing.
If you believe in absolutes then the death penalty cannot be justified, and I'm sure in our worst nightmares imagine truly dreadful crimes (like the ones highlighted here), but what does execution actually achieve? Does it make anyone safer? Does it make our country a better place?
I'm all for very tough punishment, life meaning life and all that, but the state killing someone is just the most hideous spectacle, and one that would further erode the moral well being of this country.
My thoughts anyway
29 June 2008, 11:38 PM
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David he already has convictions for rape, attempted rape and sexual assault of children. As far as I am concerned he should have been killed a long time ago.
As for those talking about miscarriages of justice, you can't have a miscarriage of justice when the conviction is beyond all reasonable doubt and in fact the defendant has admitted to the crimes. This is when the death penalty can safely be applied and no one can say oh but you might have the wrong person.
As for those talking about miscarriages of justice, you can't have a miscarriage of justice when the conviction is beyond all reasonable doubt and in fact the defendant has admitted to the crimes. This is when the death penalty can safely be applied and no one can say oh but you might have the wrong person.
==================
Anyone who rapes children has a mental issue and I have no issue in killing them. I think raping children is a little bit more than a little harsh!
Of course raping children is horrendous. And this guy wasn't obviously "mental". But what if someone is clearly crazy - are you really saying killing him is fine?? That really is taking society backwards. dl
30 June 2008, 09:14 AM
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There's an awful lot of blood lust on this thread. To those who are so willing to see our nation executing people I ask you this.
What is our criminal justice system for, justice or revenge?
It is no coincidence that virtually every civilized nation on earth abolished the death penalty decades ago, why, because it doesn't work, it achieves nothing and prevents nothing.
If you believe in absolutes then the death penalty cannot be justified, and I'm sure in our worst nightmares imagine truly dreadful crimes (like the ones highlighted here), but what does execution actually achieve? Does it make anyone safer? Does it make our country a better place?
I'm all for very tough punishment, life meaning life and all that, but the state killing someone is just the most hideous spectacle, and one that would further erode the moral well being of this country.
My thoughts anyway
What is our criminal justice system for, justice or revenge?
It is no coincidence that virtually every civilized nation on earth abolished the death penalty decades ago, why, because it doesn't work, it achieves nothing and prevents nothing.
If you believe in absolutes then the death penalty cannot be justified, and I'm sure in our worst nightmares imagine truly dreadful crimes (like the ones highlighted here), but what does execution actually achieve? Does it make anyone safer? Does it make our country a better place?
I'm all for very tough punishment, life meaning life and all that, but the state killing someone is just the most hideous spectacle, and one that would further erode the moral well being of this country.
My thoughts anyway
30 June 2008, 09:16 AM
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Yes I read the OP. But he wasn't being tried for rape and assault this time around and that is what my comments were based on. dl
==================
Anyone who rapes children has a mental issue and I have no issue in killing them. I think raping children is a little bit more than a little harsh!
Of course raping children is horrendous. And this guy wasn't obviously "mental". But what if someone is clearly crazy - are you really saying killing him is fine?? That really is taking society backwards. dl
==================
Anyone who rapes children has a mental issue and I have no issue in killing them. I think raping children is a little bit more than a little harsh!
Of course raping children is horrendous. And this guy wasn't obviously "mental". But what if someone is clearly crazy - are you really saying killing him is fine?? That really is taking society backwards. dl
My view that even if someone is 'crazy' and they commit a sex crime against a child that they should still face the death penalty. Why should the fact they are 'ill' excuse them for their crime? They still have no place in society and they can never be rehabilitated and will always pose a risk to children. Why exactly should they be kept alive at the tax payers expense? Does anyone like the idea that the tax they pay can be contributing to the cost of keeping a child rapist locked up? I'd rather they were dead and the money used on more deserving causes such as medical resources/research.
Last edited by Bravo2zero_sps; 30 June 2008 at 09:22 AM.
30 June 2008, 09:24 AM
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The reason that the Death Penalty does not, and probably never will be returned in this country is the possbility of wrongful conviction. (asdie from any moral difficulties). This is the primary reason it gets defeated in free votes in Parliament. You have some MPs that support the Death Penalty in principle, but cannot vote for it because of practical reasons.
Until that chance is completely erradicated, then it will never come back. Besides which, EU member states are not allowed to have the Death Penalty, so It' not going to happen unless there is a paradigm shift in thinking.
Personally I am against the Death penalty, but can understand why people some people would like to see it returned.
Until that chance is completely erradicated, then it will never come back. Besides which, EU member states are not allowed to have the Death Penalty, so It' not going to happen unless there is a paradigm shift in thinking.
Personally I am against the Death penalty, but can understand why people some people would like to see it returned.
30 June 2008, 09:30 AM
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Says who?
And where do you draw the line?
30 June 2008, 09:32 AM
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people like shouldn't be give the pill or anything like that. put them in a room in chains, the let the mum and dad in there with what ever they like and i am sure that would be a lot better. and they could put them though the pain they and there family are going though
30 June 2008, 09:52 AM
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Where do you draw the line? Like I said earlier where there is evidence to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the defendant committed rape or sexual assault of a child. If there is DNA or even someone was caught doing so then there is no doubt and you can not execute the wrong person.
As for who says. Well you think it is fine to keep alive someone who has raped, sexually assaulted or murdered an innocent child? I'm pretty certain of my beliefs that if you put it to a public vote in this country as to whether you should execute child rapists and murderers there would be a majority vote in favour. Thankfully the loony lefties who want to protect criminals human rights are still in the minority in this country.
We will never know though because the EU and pathetic softly softly Governments will never listen to what the public want even though they are supposed to represent us.
As for who says. Well you think it is fine to keep alive someone who has raped, sexually assaulted or murdered an innocent child? I'm pretty certain of my beliefs that if you put it to a public vote in this country as to whether you should execute child rapists and murderers there would be a majority vote in favour. Thankfully the loony lefties who want to protect criminals human rights are still in the minority in this country.
We will never know though because the EU and pathetic softly softly Governments will never listen to what the public want even though they are supposed to represent us.
30 June 2008, 10:03 AM
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Where do you draw the line? Like I said earlier where there is evidence to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the defendant committed rape or sexual assault of a child. If there is DNA or even someone was caught doing so then there is no doubt and you can not execute the wrong person.
As for who says. Well you think it is fine to keep alive someone who has raped, sexually assaulted or murdered an innocent child? I'm pretty certain of my beliefs that if you put it to a public vote in this country as to whether you should execute child rapists and murderers there would be a majority vote in favour. Thankfully the loony lefties who want to protect criminals human rights are still in the minority in this country.
We will never know though because the EU and pathetic softly softly Governments will never listen to what the public want even though they are supposed to represent us.
As for who says. Well you think it is fine to keep alive someone who has raped, sexually assaulted or murdered an innocent child? I'm pretty certain of my beliefs that if you put it to a public vote in this country as to whether you should execute child rapists and murderers there would be a majority vote in favour. Thankfully the loony lefties who want to protect criminals human rights are still in the minority in this country.
We will never know though because the EU and pathetic softly softly Governments will never listen to what the public want even though they are supposed to represent us.
You just don't get it do you.
This has nothing to do with 'protecting criminals', or 'leftie politics'. It's just wrong!
What's so wrong with locking these vile people up, why do you have such a strong desire to kill? It wont change anything, it wont undo these horrendous crimes, it wont make anyone feel any better, it wont stop future crimes.
It's an illogical and immoral arguement that you make.
30 June 2008, 10:10 AM
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Kids are pretty defencless, babies more so. They rely on us adults to nurture and protect them not treat them as sex toys and how ayone can find this gratifying is beyond comprehension.
I suppose the age old problem is proof of guilt.
Howewever, in this partuicular case this sicko should die anyone who thinks he should not should perhaps have a look through his computer as see just what he finds fun and entertianment and how he gets his rock off!
Last edited by The Zohan; 30 June 2008 at 10:13 AM.
30 June 2008, 10:12 AM
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Where do you draw the line? Like I said earlier where there is evidence to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the defendant committed rape or sexual assault of a child. If there is DNA or even someone was caught doing so then there is no doubt and you can not execute the wrong person.
By definition, if you are convicted, you did the crime, there are not "levels" of guilt.
So by extention, to have different levels of punishment is also impossible.
Any system whereby you have people proven more guilty than other would be utterly unworkable
As for who says. Well you think it is fine to keep alive someone who has raped, sexually assaulted or murdered an innocent child? I'm pretty certain of my beliefs that if you put it to a public vote in this country as to whether you should execute child rapists and murderers there would be a majority vote in favour. Thankfully the loony lefties who want to protect criminals human rights are still in the minority in this country.
The reason we have a prliament is to reaon and debate these issues, being able to give thie rfull attention to it. We pay parliment to tackle these issues.
It's the whole reason we don't round up terrorists and shoot them in the face, the state has to set example of laws that it wants people to follow.
30 June 2008, 10:12 AM
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Sorry Paul, but that's cobblers.
Last edited by PeteBrant; 30 June 2008 at 10:19 AM.
30 June 2008, 10:21 AM
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Hmm, worried about how it might make you feel...may raise anger and (umcomforatable) evil thoughts towards this chap Pete?
I am suprised any parent would find it in their hearts to se this sort of behaviour and those qwho take part as anything other than organ donors.
Pete (God forbid) if he had offended against your family or someone you knew do you think that muight change your perspective on capital punishment?
I am suprised any parent would find it in their hearts to se this sort of behaviour and those qwho take part as anything other than organ donors.
Pete (God forbid) if he had offended against your family or someone you knew do you think that muight change your perspective on capital punishment?
30 June 2008, 10:32 AM
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BUT
The fact is that a punishment is not administered on behalf of an individual, it is a tool of society and administered on behalf of society as a whole.
A civilized society does not condone killing people, even Scum like this
Ns04
30 June 2008, 10:35 AM
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Hmm, worried about how it might make you feel...may raise anger and (umcomforatable) evil thoughts towards this chap Pete?
I am suprised any parent would find it in their hearts to se this sort of behaviour and those qwho take part as anything other than organ donors.
Pete (God forbid) if he had offended against your family or someone you knew do you think that muight change your perspective on capital punishment?
I am suprised any parent would find it in their hearts to se this sort of behaviour and those qwho take part as anything other than organ donors.
Pete (God forbid) if he had offended against your family or someone you knew do you think that muight change your perspective on capital punishment?
Paul I'm fairly sure that my feelings of anger and revulsion towards this monster are no different to anyone elses. But that's not the point is it?
It really annoys me that you cannot be against the death penalty without someone saying that you are trying to protect criminals - this has nothing to do with it.
If killing is wrong, then how can the state start doing it?
As for the 'how would you feel......' arguement, well that's all very well, but we do not organsie our criminal justice system around victims revenge, and nor should we.
30 June 2008, 10:39 AM
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Come on Paul, you know better than that; one could say that about any crime! Someone vandalises your car and most people wouldn't blame you for wanting their *****, so god only knows how you'd feel if a loved one were to suffer at the hand of a monster like this.
BUT
The fact is that a punishment is not administered on behalf of an individual, it is a tool of society and administered on behalf of society as a whole.
A civilized society does not condone killing people, even Scum like this
Ns04
BUT
The fact is that a punishment is not administered on behalf of an individual, it is a tool of society and administered on behalf of society as a whole.
A civilized society does not condone killing people, even Scum like this
Ns04
In a civilsed country people would not commit crimes like this would they.
Do you think if it was your child/sister/friend you would feel any different?
I would rather them time and money spend on this individual was put back into child care and rehabilitation and not used to keep him alive.
30 June 2008, 10:43 AM
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It is entirely reasonable to have two different points of view - One personal, one for the masses.
Like Ns04 said, For example, most of us here would make the "keying of cars" punishable by hand removal, but of course, this would be ridiculous.
Of course, if someone tried it on with one of my kids, he would get what was coming (and considering my kids are 13 & 17, 6 foot plus and ju-jitsu black belts, he would probably get it from them rather than me
).Not supporting the death penalty does not mean you condone, or "understand" the actions of these sick people. You just don't beleive they should be murdered by the state for revenge.
30 June 2008, 10:48 AM
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Paul I'm fairly sure that my feelings of anger and revulsion towards this monster are no different to anyone elses. But that's not the point is it?
It really annoys me that you cannot be against the death penalty without someone saying that you are trying to protect criminals - this has nothing to do with it.
If killing is wrong, then how can the state start doing it?
It really annoys me that you cannot be against the death penalty without someone saying that you are trying to protect criminals - this has nothing to do with it.
If killing is wrong, then how can the state start doing it?
We live in Britian in 2008.
Martin, How do you feel about armed police and the military, maybe we should get rid of both and see what happens to this country.
Police shot to kill without a judge and jury to decide before hand
Military the same - actioned by the gov't
Sometimes tough decisions, policies and actions need to be made/taken.
30 June 2008, 10:52 AM
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You just don't get it do you.
This has nothing to do with 'protecting criminals', or 'leftie politics'. It's just wrong!
What's so wrong with locking these vile people up, why do you have such a strong desire to kill? It wont change anything, it wont undo these horrendous crimes, it wont make anyone feel any better, it wont stop future crimes.
It's an illogical and immoral arguement that you make.
This has nothing to do with 'protecting criminals', or 'leftie politics'. It's just wrong!
What's so wrong with locking these vile people up, why do you have such a strong desire to kill? It wont change anything, it wont undo these horrendous crimes, it wont make anyone feel any better, it wont stop future crimes.
It's an illogical and immoral arguement that you make.
They go into prison and are segregated from the general prison population for their own protection and are housed with other sex offenders. So you end up with a network of sex offenders in prison all fantasising over each others crimes and sharing their disgusting perversion. Some of these sickos then get to be released and having made the contacts in prison possibly have a greater network open to them when they get out of prison.
Being executed removes them from existence. They pose no further risk to anyone. You tell me what purpose they have to exist in prison. What right to life do they have once they have done what they have to a child?
Strong desite to kill? No, strong desire to erradicate the existence of child rapists and murderers.
30 June 2008, 10:54 AM
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This is precisely why those offended against cannot be part of the decision making process. There is too much emotion involved to make a ratonal decision.
It is entirely reasonable to have two different points of view - One personal, one for the masses.
Like Ns04 said, For example, most of us here would make the "keying of cars" punishable by hand removal, but of course, this would be ridiculous.
Of course, if someone tried it on with one of my kids, he would get what was coming (and considering my kids are 13 & 17, 6 foot plus and ju-jitsu black belts, he would probably get it from them rather than me).
Not supporting the death penalty does not mean you condone, or "understand" the actions of these sick people. You just don't beleive they should be murdered by the state for revenge.
It is entirely reasonable to have two different points of view - One personal, one for the masses.
Like Ns04 said, For example, most of us here would make the "keying of cars" punishable by hand removal, but of course, this would be ridiculous.
Of course, if someone tried it on with one of my kids, he would get what was coming (and considering my kids are 13 & 17, 6 foot plus and ju-jitsu black belts, he would probably get it from them rather than me
).Not supporting the death penalty does not mean you condone, or "understand" the actions of these sick people. You just don't beleive they should be murdered by the state for revenge.
Keying cars is a daft (at best) analogy is it not, FFS it is a car and can be fixed/repaired . it is not a living breathing human being is it so please drop what is a pointless comparison.
I am not sure why having the families of this offended against involved in the sentancing process is such a bad thing. They understand first hand the pain and suffering.
Niot supporting the death penalty does not mean anyone condones it, agreed.
If you want to use emotive language like murdered by the state then how about this thenn
I feel that those who rape and kill babies and perpetuate it by viewing and purchasing the images of baby rape should be put down, who agrees with that.
30 June 2008, 11:02 AM
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Interesting opinions on here. Made my feelings clear earlier.
But this nonsense about a civilised society - civilised in what way - that we can look after the planet better than we can look after children? (Slightly tongue in cheek).
If we were civilised, then we would not have these crimes against kids. As we do, then the people that do them are NOT civilised thus have no place in the civilised world. So we should remove them from the civilised world, for their sake and ours.
Harsh - possibly, but everyone has a choice, and if theirs is to do that, then they take the punishment.
PLUS, it saves money, overcrowding in jails and makes us all feel a little bit safer that they will never be freed...
But this nonsense about a civilised society - civilised in what way - that we can look after the planet better than we can look after children? (Slightly tongue in cheek).
If we were civilised, then we would not have these crimes against kids. As we do, then the people that do them are NOT civilised thus have no place in the civilised world. So we should remove them from the civilised world, for their sake and ours.
Harsh - possibly, but everyone has a choice, and if theirs is to do that, then they take the punishment.
PLUS, it saves money, overcrowding in jails and makes us all feel a little bit safer that they will never be freed...
30 June 2008, 11:06 AM
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Maybe in some utopian society this makes perfect sense and i am with you because people like this would not exist.
We live in Britian in 2008.
Martin, How do you feel about armed police and the military, maybe we should get rid of both and see what happens to this country.
Police shot to kill without a judge and jury to decide before hand
Military the same - actioned by the gov't
Sometimes tough decisions, policies and actions need to be made/taken.
We live in Britian in 2008.
Martin, How do you feel about armed police and the military, maybe we should get rid of both and see what happens to this country.
Police shot to kill without a judge and jury to decide before hand
Military the same - actioned by the gov't
Sometimes tough decisions, policies and actions need to be made/taken.
Yes this is Britain 2008 not 1808
Well if the police were to shoot someone in preventing a crime like the one we are discussing here, then I have no trouble with that whatsoever. But that isn't execution is it?
For the state to execute someone would be a ghastly spectacle, I don't want my country to do such a thing, what values is that supposed to be promoting. And I ask again what will it achieve?
30 June 2008, 11:06 AM
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Is it understandable. Yes, absolutely! I'd feel the same way myself, as would anyone on here.
Is it right in a civilised society. No, most definitely not!
30 June 2008, 11:08 AM
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Interesting opinions on here. Made my feelings clear earlier.
But this nonsense about a civilised society - civilised in what way - that we can look after the planet better than we can look after children? (Slightly tongue in cheek).
If we were civilised, then we would not have these crimes against kids. As we do, then the people that do them are NOT civilised thus have no place in the civilised world. So we should remove them from the civilised world, for their sake and ours.
Harsh - possibly, but everyone has a choice, and if theirs is to do that, then they take the punishment.
PLUS, it saves money, overcrowding in jails and makes us all feel a little bit safer that they will never be freed...
But this nonsense about a civilised society - civilised in what way - that we can look after the planet better than we can look after children? (Slightly tongue in cheek).
If we were civilised, then we would not have these crimes against kids. As we do, then the people that do them are NOT civilised thus have no place in the civilised world. So we should remove them from the civilised world, for their sake and ours.
Harsh - possibly, but everyone has a choice, and if theirs is to do that, then they take the punishment.
PLUS, it saves money, overcrowding in jails and makes us all feel a little bit safer that they will never be freed...
30 June 2008, 11:09 AM
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So who draws the line in the sand?
Kid molesting is an easy one but would banging an old lady on the head become a capital offence? Should a 14 year old who stabs someone be put down?
Maybe we should let the mob decide - like that crowd who chased after a paediatrician because they thought that was the same as a paedophile? dl
Kid molesting is an easy one but would banging an old lady on the head become a capital offence? Should a 14 year old who stabs someone be put down?
Maybe we should let the mob decide - like that crowd who chased after a paediatrician because they thought that was the same as a paedophile? dl
Last edited by David Lock; 30 June 2008 at 11:12 AM.
30 June 2008, 11:16 AM
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Yes this is Britain 2008 not 1808
Well if the police were to shoot someone in preventing a crime like the one we are discussing here, then I have no trouble with that whatsoever. But that isn't execution is it?
For the state to execute someone would be a ghastly spectacle, I don't want my country to do such a thing, what values is that supposed to be promoting. And I ask again what will it achieve?
Well if the police were to shoot someone in preventing a crime like the one we are discussing here, then I have no trouble with that whatsoever. But that isn't execution is it?
For the state to execute someone would be a ghastly spectacle, I don't want my country to do such a thing, what values is that supposed to be promoting. And I ask again what will it achieve?
LOL!
Blimey - public executuions, maybe 'madam gilloutine', old women sat around knitting, children p,aying with the hads as they fall to the ground stalls sellign efegies of the condemmed man/woman and plastic (made in china) gilloutines....
Oh come on, as you say 2008 not 1808 - behind closed doors, chemical, painless (relative) not put out over the internet, public would not bat an eye or want to attend, would you, no , would i no. Would the victims relative - maybe if thety wished to perhaps.
30 June 2008, 11:17 AM
#90
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Of course this is such an emotive issue you are not going to get a consensus between those that want the death penalty, and those that do not. So it's going to be one of those circular debalte, so I'll withdraw here, I can't think I want to add, and like I say I can understand people that want the penalty back, I just don't agree with them.