Klaatu

Indeed! Monkey see, monkey do. Monkey hear, monkey speak! No wonder "developed societies" are falling apart.

PeteBrant

I Disagree
Why should I go back 70 years? Of course things have changed from then, (although how much is debateable)
I am comparing it to my own youth, some 25 years ago, and it is no worse.
The government is striving for a better educated society, which is no bad thing. I cannot see how a 50% univercity entrance rate, is "dumbing down" society, from , say, 20 years ago, when it was 20%. Could you explain that to me?.


You would think that swearing is tantamount to rape the way you all carry on. You seem to forget, you were probably doing it when you were, what, 12, 13? and out with your mates. But of course, it was different for you


And for those of you that have kids, do you think your child aren't or won't be swearing when they go out with friends or are at school at break times?

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

I lecture at the same University I attended some 10 years ago and I can confirm that he standards of undergraduate admission has declined considerably! Some simply are not up to the required standards for a degree level study. Why do they get in? Well, when you cut funding, make students pay for their education and start stipulating admissions targets, what do you expect universities to do? Ever heard of the govs "widening participation agenda" Euphenism for letting people into university regardless of evidence of academic attainment I'm afraid.

Invariably such students fail or get a very poor degree, but, hey, they got into university so that's the govs entrance targets met! More of our population has been to university....don't ask whether that was right for them or useful for their career aspirations, whether the job market can utilise such an increase in graduates etc...

Why 50%? Do they even care how is this distributed across degree subject matters: would a sharp increase in the number of drama students be as useful as an increase in engineers? How does this distribution relate to the demands of the UK job market? Where was the evidence that targets were needed e.g. that every year half of college leavers wanted to attend uni, but a good proportion were unfairly denied due to non-academic related, arbitrary reasons?? I'd suggest these number naturally fluctuate and all concerned could do well without pointless target setting and gov interference.

As for kids swearing: I don't even tolerate it from my undergraduates in Uni. let alone primary/secondary school kids. They're in an academic institution and will conduct themselves with appropriate levels of decorum, or get the hell out!!

There is a time and place for swearing.

Admission targets represent typical Nu Labia obsession with spin and shallow statistics over substance!

Ns04

PeteBrant

You are looking at the whole university subject from a career prospect point of view, which is not the only advantage to a university education, both on a perosnal level and for the country as a whole; as more educated society, is a less troubled society.

Of course there is a time and place and by and large people observe that - Yes, kids don't to the same degree as adults, but that's to be expected.

There is no doubt that swear words in general are far more acceptable in society than they were; and rightly so, they are words, not anything more or less than that. There is nothign more infuriating that someone censoring a swear words because my fragile mind might explode if I hear it.

With regards to kids swearing, any evidence, either to support the theory that they swear more, or less, is entirely anecdotal.

Personally I do not walk down the street and hear any more swearing than I used to. The only place I hear more of it is on the telly, and I am quite pleased about that.

Oldfella

iTrader: (3)

Did your mates saying go on to mention, with the blunt end of a ragman's trumpet?

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Agreed on the potential (interpersonal) benefits, but they are not given; they require commitment to the degree and a reasonable level of attainment.

I think the socio-political implications of university education are more complicated than more educated = less troubled society. It's not really my areas though. Thinking out loud: intelligence is not inherently benevolent, it can be applied to more questionable pursuits e.g. the BNP has party members educated to doctoral level! Rates of unemployment among graduates is a significant concern to universities, this is certainly not good for society.

Expected, yes, but not accepted. Go sit on a bus at school leaving time and listen to the conversations the kids have: I promise you, you'll pick up on at least a few where it's: 'F this' and 'f that'. Barely a sentence is dispensed without an obscenity! It's disrespectful, lazy and unnecessary and paints the children and their parents in a very poor light.

I simply do not accept you'd have got that from kids 20 years ago!

Quite apart from the swearing, the general standard of composition is exceptionally poor! Excessive swearing tends to indicate a failure in communication and is often the preserve of those whose intellectual development/knowledge has/is being stunted! It can be used to good effect comedically, or to place emphasis on something, but context is everything and over-use it and it looses it's impact and detracts from what is being said. It also makes the speaker look boorish and uneducated!

Excessive swearing in children is, IMHO, indicative of the sharp decline in parenting that afflicts this country.

Ns04

PeteBrant

You did - I was there , in fact for me it was more like 25 years ago.
I do not agree at all that the use of swear words is any indication of a limited vocabulary, or evidence of stunted intellectual growth, thats just plain old prejudice. I know people that have brains the size of planets, yet swear like troopers.

I also don't think it makes people look boorish, Simply put, I think you are being a snob about it.

If someone swears every other word, I make no assumptions as to thier intelligence.

Now that is absolute rubbish. Tell me, what can a parent do, when a child is out with friends, to stop them swearing?

Its all about teaching kids when swearing is unacceptable. And in waht circles swearing can come into play; I don't swear in front of my kids, they don't swear in front of me. Do they swear a teachers etc? No.

Some of you don't have rose tints on, you have an entire bouquet on each eye.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Time flies!

I didn't say it always means a limitation in the above respect, but if I hear someone simply say f this and f that I start to wonder whether they have anything more constructive to add!! I also question the efficacy of the continual use of expletives, as they diminish in their effectiveness via desensitisation!

Excessive swearing does make you look uncultured, if that makes me a snob, so be it.

[/quote]


So, parents can't do anything about their kids behaviour as soon as their back is turned?!?! Can you say that if a child engages in other forms of antisocial behaviour? The point is, if the child has been raised appropriately, parents should not need to have to worry about what happens when their back is turned! The child should not feel the need to f and blind constantly, certainly not for the esteem of their peers and definitely not regardless of company and context.

I'm not saying that swearing doesn't have its place, I'm not even saying that kids shouldn't swear full stop, but excessive swearing, or inappropriate use of swearing, such as that demonstrated in the exam question example should be frowned on, and rightly so! we certainly don't need PC plonkers like that examiner making excuses for such foul mouthed petulance!

There isn't enough manners, humility and decorum in our society: it need to be said.

Manners make the man/woman!

All children should be taught that at the earliest possible age.

Excessive/inappropriate use of swear words is, more often than not, poor manners and can even be antisocial behaviour!

Ns04