Ginge !

iTrader: (1)

explain WHY it needs a remap,,,,, when the flow will be the same for the maf to adjust,,, unless the powerband changes OR the ecu has no adjustment peramiters in it to take this into consideration...... then it wont

come on harvey you MUST know this now ive been told you map cars for a living ?

SunnySideUp

If he maps cars for a living then, to be honest, the judgement will be rather vested.

A FMIC sole purpose is to reduce the intake temperature ... in the very same way as travelling to a cold country, say Scotland. Add a damp misty morning and the charge temperature will drop even further.

If you needed a re-map for a FMIC then, obviously, you would need one if you drove your car from Cornwall to Lerwick ..... which is clearly nonsense. The sensors on the standard car are well able to send the temperature signals to the standard map in the standard ECU.

As far as I know the valves are not controlled by the ECU Map - so, the only thing the map does is tell the spark plug when to spark and tell the injectors how long to stay open .... all for a given set of inputs. It cannot do anymore than that.

I don't think I'm missing anything?

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Ginge : Have you not taken in what has been said on the previous two pages. Please read again with an open mind and digest.

Please read the previous two pages. It has been explained to you but if you are still having difficulty please be more specific as to which bit you do not understand and I will try to assist you but you need to get rid of this preconceived belief that all ECUs are capable of the same results.

Deary me. You do have a propensity for getting it wrong.

I do not map cars for a living. Sorry mate you have got it all wrong again. You need to be a little more circumspect in who and what you believe.

Sunnyside : If true, your suggestion would be abhorrent. However, I do not map cars for a living. I do sell front mount intercoolers, ported headers, performance up-pipes and other genuine tried and tested performance equipment.
As some people purchasing FMICs struggle to raise the funds to make the purchase, it is not in my interests to point out they should have a remap (and its expense) if I was motivated as you suggest above. However, I would hate for some unsuspecting person to purchase an FMIC from me and then have an expensive engine failure, specially if they had been taken in because of their lack of technical knowledge, by some crap on a bbs.

Perhaps you would care to apologise for making such a suggestion.

Clearly you are missing a lot. Engine management is an enourmous subject and I am sure that even the most experienced engine mappers frequenting this board will accept they are still learning all the time especially with new equipment and the natural evolution that is continually taking place. This is how, in part, maximum power from 2 litre turbo charged Subaru engines has increased from 360-380 bhp in 2002 to around 600 bhp today.
To have a fuller understanding of how the ECU works you need to have a greater understanding of how the engine works.
This bit concerns me :

If you would like to improve your knowledge of engines, ECUs and many more car performance related topics in general and Subarus in particular then I can recommend a book by Nick Warne, "Training WRX" I am sure you will find this very informative and assist you in having an informed observation on ECUs, mapping, intercooling and many other topics.

If you have difficulty finding the publication please let me know and I will find more details.

Cheers.

GazTheHat

Harvey, that's the first constructive arguement i've seen from you without blowing your lid. The blood pressure pills working a treat.

Ginge; WTF is with 4+ commas all the time. Remove the bubble gum from under the key.


Ginge, how about the increased pipework alone, what do you think of that?

Ginge !

iTrader: (1)

what will the increase pipe work do ALONE then ???

affect the amount of air the engine is gonna consume ?

increase flow/ decrease flow ?

im confused what you are stating the increased pipe work is gonna do for the car that required the iginiton/fuel maps modded,,,,, that the ecu wont already do aslong and the boost remains the same

and why would someone blow there top who sells car parts for a living,,,,,, i ALSO am involved in the supply and manufacture of parts in VERY large bulk amounts and understand how BASIC physics work too

recomending a remap JUST cause you aint sure if its needed is NOT a good thing,,, its like recomending a rebuild each service incase you spin a shell

Ginge !

iTrader: (1)

changing a inlet manifold for a larger capacity would need a remap,,,, intercooler wont as its still got the same restriction,, unless there is such a amount of lag created by the pipe work,,,, which there wont be unless its a bad design

GazTheHat

That was a joke about Harvey. Check the smilies!!

And Ginge, ever heard the saying "you can lead a horse to water...."

GazTheHat

So you found the answer in google just after you asked why. Brilliant. Google is your friend.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Look if people on here feel they know better and want to ignore the advice of people like Harvey. Fair enough.

Don't say you weren't warned or come on here bitching about Subaru chocolate engines if things go **** up though.

Fair warned be you I say!

Ns04

Ginge !

iTrader: (1)

no i just when i had a cossie i was gonna get a sweedish inlet manifold and was told i would NEED a remap due to the extra air stored/alowed to flow inside it,,,, and if i NEVER needed a remap,,,,, then what was the point fitting it at all

cossie boys are a little more DIY than the scoobie guys are due to then time they been about and the average ages of cossie drivers back in the day i guess

people swopping 2wd coolers to 4wd then to rs500's and the maps being fine for them,,,, then fitting pro alloy ones and seeing a presure drop,,, raising the boost and checking the fueling found there was no need for a remap

changing turbos and other parts are different !

Ginge !

iTrader: (1)

mate i understand engines, i never bought a subaru blind and know that most engine melt downs have reasons for it,, they dont just " melt " and can look at reasons for it,,,, then check and see

alot of cossie meltdowns are due to various things,,, NONE OF THEM THE ENGINE but the parts that control the spark and fuel over all

just cause someone is known dont mean hes ALWAYS right, science is never correct,,,,, its always the best theory until its disproven if that makes sence

people STILL think the world is flat, theres loads of others out there

just saying that i would be GLAD to test a car,,, check the fueling of a intercooler ON A UK CAR then change to a FMIC then reset it up then check the fueling again and see if its safe

i would say on my car but as i own a 97 STI with a mines ect,, from japan then that would be stupid as i KNOW the fuelings already miles off hence me getting a new ECU

joekont

I'm running an FMIC without a remap.

Went from a TD04 to a VF22 as well. Still on the standard map.
Running fine.

'99 uk spec car.

Graph shows good power. The little dotted line is the mixture which you can see is still on the rich side (safe).
And that was over 2 years ago...

https://www.scoobynet.com/scooby.php...&photoid=14608

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Thanks for that Gaz :

Seeing as you asked the Ditropan (not for blood pressure a condition I am imune to) are working a treat but the N.H.S. restrict you to only four Cialis a month. Hard luck.
I hope all is well with you, your car and your current modding.
Amuse yourself on here for a couple of days as I have things to do.
No point blowing my lid. Some of these guys need genuine help and advice.

Stu : Don't drop out now.

Ginge : Don't get easily distracted by NS04 and Gaz. They just want to wind you up. Remember what the original poster asked. Let's stick with that and get back to me on post 63. Have you read the previous two pages yet to see the answer to your question?

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Interesting graphs Joe.
Are you running standard FPR and what boost level?
What FMIC?
Good result but are you not concerned about 10:1 AFRS?
Sorry for all the questions.

joekont

That graph was running stand FPR.
FMIC was a cheap one from china. £185 delivered. They saved the money on the pipework. It's shocking! But the actual intercooler is very well made and nice and heavy. I've got my boost set to 1.2bar. I had just reset some of the parameters on my way to the RR that morning which is why the line is a little bit up and down instead of nice and smooth. The AVC-R's learning function is fantastic as long as you give it a little time to actually let it learn someting lol.
The graph is showing that it richens up as the revs increase which is fine. I don't think I'm getting into bore wash territory.
I keep a close eye on my AFR gauge and you can just see the mixture goes over from stoich to rich.

Glad to answer questions on it. I do think people are a little too keen to just go and get stuff mapped when it'll run perfectly safely without a remap.
I am about to get mine done but for the simple fact that I couldn't afford it back then and I can now.
Plus I'm adding tubular manifolds which I'll be wrapping tonight and I've added an adjustable FPR and done the parallel fuel rail mod and will be adding phenolic spacers. And changing to a VF35.
So the spec is changing quite alot and I think a remap would allow me to get the best from those mods.
At the time that run was made, the dyno guys said that there was plenty of scope for improvement with a remap and that I might see 350bhp. I just didn't have the £650+vat at the time.

STiFreak

iTrader: (4)

It will cause a lag effect (when there is a sudden big change in throttle angle, like going from cruise to wide open throttle) if adjustments are not made to the tip in enrichment tables in the ecu. ECU reads the air via the MAF and then adds fuel accordingly ... but due to the much longer pipework of the FMIC, it takes the measured air longer to reach the manifold than it would on a TMIC, hence you are overfuelling for a short period of time robbing you of power and giving that laggy feeling.
The turbo also has to pressurise the pipework and IC core, before that boost is seen at the manifold, but that is of less significance IMO.

Harvey is correct, you need to do quite a lot more reading.

daves2rs

Harvey, how informative are those books?

PS I purchased a FMIC from Harvey and coupled this with other mods and the results after the 2nd map are like chalk and cheese. I used the map to gain the benefits of the FMIC and the results are impressive.

daves2rs

Agreed, when the car was being mapped initially it was quite laggy on a TD05 16G at low revs in 5th gear. After a few runs and adjusts to prevent spiking and fuelling issues the boost picked up much better and still decent enough considering the pipework involved.

IMO If your going to buy a FMIC then you need to make the most of it and have adjustments made to gain the benefit.

Ginge !

iTrader: (1)

a map will benifit any car when looking for EXTRA performance,,,, thats easy to work out

the extra "lag" caused by the pipe work WONT affect the fueling enough on a FACTORY MAP and it aint gonna adjust the power band that much,, but that is the only argument for remapping,,,,, but of such insignificence and wont make the car melt, different turbos affect the fueling tables ALOT more unless the pipe work is such a stupid amount,,,, and top end where it melts wont be a issue due to the actuator bleeding off extra air at the top to control the boost that the manifold sees with the map sensor

Ginge !

iTrader: (1)

infact STIFREEK,,,,, do you realise how long extra lag is on and off the throttle ?

seriously it aint that much per KRPM, remember we the bloke was asking if its safe,,,,, the reality is aslong as hes not had the car mapped,,, the factory map will be safe and just the car checked over for fueling, reason for that is if the FPR is weeping and he fits a FMIC the engine could melt and what would be blamed ???

boost leaks also make the car have a "lag" effect,,,, does that make the car melt or just overspeed the turbo ?

axgt_bwaii

iTrader: (6)

i cant be arsed to read this no more

Ginge !

iTrader: (1)

think ill agree with you there, im gonna join harvey and stop bothering to reply as none of us are gonna agree as we both think we are right

joekont

Opinions are like arseholes.

Everbodies got one!

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Harvey,

With respect I think you may have misunderstood my intention with the last post. I have no interest in winding anyone up.

If someone comes on here asking for advice they will often receive conflicting opinions. It is then incumbent on them to ascribe relative weights to the comments left by the respective parties based on -one would hope- an objective assessment on their experience and expertise on the given topic. In researching the FMIC for my car, I spoke to people who I knew were authorities on the Hybrid (including your good self), the Subaru engine, and the JECSs ECU. All unanimously agreed with your position: if you fit a FMIC the car should be remapped.

Any advice to the contrary needs to be seen in that context.

Ns04

Phildodd06

Harvey, what is this book 'Training WRX' id like to read it, i could learn alot.

SunnySideUp

Harvey, a few points:-

1. If you did map the ECUs under discussion then declaring a vested interest is normal good practise within business. You have stated you do not - so there is no vested interest in your opinions on the subject.

2. I am still not aware of the valve timing being controlled by the ECU map - you are indicating otherwise, fair enough. But this still confuses me and I do question it ...... I was unaware that the Impreza had variable valve timing and that it was electronically controlled from the ECU.

3. I believe that there is no need for a re-map if you have a FMIC .... as you are something of an expert in these things, could you tell us what the temperature drop is over a TMIC .. this must be available somewhere?

4. You gave an excellent write up above

SunnySideUp

Here you go Phil :-

Mocom Racing - Performance car and trackday products

And, also here:-

Subaru Performance Handbook - ClickBank

Talk about over selling a book!!!! A few lines would have done it, not all that verbal claptrap!! Put me right off it!!

The book advert does make an interesting point reference what happens in an accident .... where your FMIC gets damaged .... I'm guessing that your engine also gets damaged?? Another reason for keeping the IC where Subaru put it I guess?

Ginge !

iTrader: (1)

classic impreza that i have dont have VVT, most cars with it though have a hydrolic based valve,,, though some are ecu controlled but deffo not on a my classic STI

SunnySideUp

I have an Impreza and didn't think it had Map controlled Valves ..... but Harvey seems to indicate that I'm talking out my rear end so maybe it does?

If it doesn't then the only thing a Map controls is when the spark occurs and how long the injectors remain open (Maybe the Boost Solenoid?) ..... it cannot affect anything else, given a given set of inputs.

I am yet to be given an absolute concrete Engineering reason why a re-map is needed because of moving the Intercooler to another part of the car ......

Phildodd06

I think the issue occours because your not just moving the IC from the top of the engine to the front, your fitting a bigger IC aswell.
I think the problem occours with the boost spike you would get, the reason why im thinking this is, because in the winter when its really cold, i boost round to 1.45 bar and some times hit the boost cut off as its boosting way over what it shoud (1.1)
This is just a theory i have came up with, shoot it to bits if yoiu can make me understand better.

SunnySideUp:- Thanks for them links.