p1junkie

iTrader: (5)

the newer ecus may well be better BUT way back on all classic uk and import after fitting fmic and caik the knocklink used to light up like christmas trees due to increased airflow and colder air..the point of fmic is lower charge temps now lower charge temps can lead to problems as can higher charge temps
and to get the best from any mod a remap would be well advised
to all those saying dont bother with the remap are you going to help that person out when his engine pops NO u wont
Anyone fitting a fmic and not bothering to adjust the map is a fool but everybody has a choice
i remember back in 2002 speaking to harvey at length about fmic etc and his knowledge has only increased since then and he knew what he was talking about way back then so at the end of the day its your choice but dont cry if ur engine pops

AlanG

I'm not going to get roped into this debate but would like to share one snippet with regard to fitting a FMIC.
Back in 2000 or thereabouts,i was at a rolling road day and a chap came up asking about the FMIC i had on my car, which was a Hyperflow.
He was interested in having one as well for cooler air temps (i'm in Scotland btw) but couldn't afford any other mods at that time (the car was standard)but wanted it fitted and could save up for future mods as and when funds allowed.

The FMIC was fitted, but the owner was disappointed because the car had lost the *spark* and urgency it had with the TMIC. Same standard ecu, same boost as original (TD04), go figure.

SunnySideUp

I would still like the temperature difference a FMIC achieves over a TMIC.

If, as I suspect, it is much less than a 20C difference (I'm thinking that is is actually less than 5C myself) - there is clearly no logical reason for a re-map ...... as it is blatantly obvious to everyone that that difference in Temp. is the very same as a Winters day and a Summers day here in the UK.

Maybe we should have a Winter Map and a Summer Map to stop all these engine failures on Subarus I see each day in the summer ..... Subaru upon Subaru lined up on the hard shoulder with blown engines - the owners wailing and crying out "OH, why didn't I get a re-map when the forecast was for a prolonged hot spell?" "OH, why, OH, why!"

Just joking, but you must see my point?

Ginge !

iTrader: (1)

so he that that much more lag he noticed it ???

that tells me theres another isue,,,,, the lag issue IS the only reason why

btw telling people " whos gonna help them when the engine pops "

thats called scaremongering my friend,,,, do as i say or dont come back crying to me when the devil takes you is also what the people say to kids to make them go to church

the engine CANT go pop if the charge temps are lower and the power is moved UP the rev range on a standard map,,,,, DET sets in with too little fuel or too hot a engine,,,, which also happens when there aint enough fuel,,, lag would mean theres MORE fuel than there should be for the table,,, but the ecu would sort that anyway ON A STANDARD CAR

modded cars tend to melt down to bad maps or mechianics not looking enough to find weak points in engines,,,, trust me ive been playing with cars for 13 years now,,,, from my first badly set up and i was ripped off on a orion turbo to learning about cars ect to get where i am now,,,,, thats a car thats running

also people on and off the gas racing there mates will melt QUICKER if the cars been mapped with the idea of MORE power,,,, the leaner the engine is the faster it goes..... are you lot aware of that too,,,,, hence the car never felt sooo quick,,, is a comon story engine builders hear

Phildodd06

Funny you should say that, i said to my mate, the car felt faster than normal b4 the big end let up

joekont

I am that fool.
And the car is still fine and holding together over 2 years down the road.
Not only did I fit an FMIC without a remap but I also fitted a VF22 which is a far far cry from a TD04..
The VF flows around 80% more air. And the charge temps are dramatically cooler.
I must have a truly bullet proof engine!

AlanG

Yes, it was very noticeable. At that time FMIC's were expensive to buy and that was all he could afford to do at that time, but was adamant that was what he wanted done first before touching anything else on the car, despite being advised differently. I could see the logic of putting the FMIC on, but at the end of the day, advice and experience from those better placed to do so would have been better heeded.
I never found out what happened after that (whether he got it mapped or changed anything else) as i wasn't directly involved, only given the feedback from both owner and supplier/fitter on the results of fitting the intercooler.

AlanG

If you think about it, a TD04 is a tiny turbo with what? about a foot of intercooler pipe before the TMIC? Whereas a typical front mount has in the region of 12 feet of intercooler piping! as well as being a bigger bore pipe to boot!

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Where to start???

Dave2rs and Phildodd06 : The book "Training WRX" by Nick Warne is worth reading. It covers the history of the WRX and many topics from, maintainance,brakes, engine, gearbox, suspension etc and you will certainly know a lot more after reading it than you did before. If nothing else it is thought provoking. Some of the content I take a different view on. The book was published in 1999 and things have moved on. Where my views differ are purely from actual personal experiences so do not take it as a bible but use it for reference and to stimulate your own thought process.
Available from info@MRTrally.com.au.

I am happy to loan out my copy on the strict understanding it comes back in a reasonable time scale. e-mail me per profile.
I have found several other books useful and these include 21st Century Performance by Julian Edgar (Clockwork Media, NSW. Oz). Forced Induction Tuning - Performance Tuning by A. Graham Bell (Haynes) and Engine Management by Dave Walker (Haynes). With the content of these books stimulating your thought process you can then make the most of hands on practical experience and observations.

Joe. On a Classic it is SOMETIMES possible to fit an FMIC "and get away with it", more so on a crappy, inefficient FMIC installation. But at what cost? See P1junkie's post 91 above. Without a knock link he would probably have lived in ignorant bliss until he wrecked his engine. Now what is certain, as in your case for instance, whether you get away with it or not, without a remap, your engine will not give optimum performance. It will use far more fuel than it should, it is likely to be laggy, hesitant and lack crispness.
Look at your graph in post 72. The AFR is a straightline around 10.0:1 from around 3,300 rpm to around 4,000 rpm. The reason it is a flat line is probably because that is the lower limit that particular WB O2 set up could read at that particular time. Your RR operator may confirm that.
Now if you want to run your AFRs some unknown place below 10:1 that is your business but it not advisable.
Your mixture is way too rich across the complete rev range and the rolling road operator has already indicated there may be a further 10% power to be had from a remap so the engine is running very inefficiently.
How much extra fuel have you used in the extended period since you changed the turbo and intercooler? It would have gone a long way towards a replacement ECU.
Your TD04 turbo was probably fully spooled by 3,300 rpm but your VF22 that might be capable of 350 bhp with all supporting mods is still thinking about getting out of bed. It is possibly the slowest spooling of the common VF range and may take until 4000 rpm to achieve full boost where it is using up some of the excess fuel.
When your car is remapped, I hope the difference is such that you will come on here and say you should have had it done two years ago. The remap will add more power from reducing the fuelling and adding ignition advance and without other than mapping changes spool should improve noticably thus requiring fewer gear shifts and making the car nicer to drive. It will feel much crisper.
Lastly, you are adding tubular headers. At your anticipated power level and with the VF22 turbo you should consider ported headers and matched up-pipe because the tubular headers are likely to spool signifigantly later than your existing O/E headers.

Good luck with your mapping and let us know how you get on.

Ginge : I am not following this :

Forgive me for being a bit slow on the up take but can you explain that a bit more clearly especially about the actuator bleeding off extra air?
Also, if a remap is not required in line with what you have said here, why was P1junkie getting DET?

SunnySideUp :

You miss the point entirely. From your original post you were uncertain if the valves were controlled by the ECU. You even say immediately above that this still confuses you and you question it. To save you looking back here is your original post. :

To spell it out, this is nothing to do with variable valve timing. It is to do with your shaky knowledge of how the engine works. If your rudimentary knowledge of the working of the engine is such that this is a grey area to you then you can hardly have an informed opinion on slightly more complex issues relating to operating perameters.

And while we are at it :

Well actually no. Far more complex starting with boost map and inputs for temperature, throttle position, cam and crank position, acceleration enrichment, cold start tables, individual cylinder trim etc etc.

With a front mount intercooler, such a radical change has taken place that it is quite possible for the engine to run in areas of the map that have not actually been mapped in the O/E Subaru ECU or the values contained in the map in these areas bear no relation to the engines fueling or ignition requirements. This is very clearly demonstrated by the AFR plot kindly posted by Joe and by the experience of P1junkie above and dozens of others first hand experiences that frequent this board.

At post 87, WTF is all this about?
SunnySideUp/Ginge? Do either of you own Subarus?
If so have either of you fitted an FMIC.

Now if you want to fit an FMIC on a Classic without a remap it is Russian Roulette. You MAY get away with it but for sure your engine will run well below optimum.
Fit a Hybrid or one of the cheaper immitations on a New Age and you will wreck your engine in time. Certainty. Usually you pick up no2 piston in the bore. In line with what has been said by Gaz, NS04 and many others, the owner can do what he or she pleases and they can decide for themselves what may or may not be bad advice.

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Alan : QED.

AlanG

Or for those that don't understand what that means:

"quod erat demonstrandum"

scooby L

So after all that..the general opinion of the experts is:

Why would you fit a FMIC without the benefits of a remap.

A shed load of fitting for no real advantage (safe or otherwize).

If u want to look good... buy a cheap rad and stick it under the front bumper and pretend it's plumbed in..

SunnySideUp

Harvey

Thanks for your extensive reply.

I do understand how an engine works, thanks all the same .... I read your post as saying that the valve timing is controlled by the map on an Impreza. Now, I questioned this as I didn't think the valves were controlled by the ECU Map ..... you have now indicated that I was right first time and the valves have nothing to do with the map.

This brings me neatly back to the fact that a map controls when a spark occurs and how long the injectors are open for ........ after taking into account the relevant inputs - for example the Intake Temperature!

The standard ECU Map takes into account the Intake Temperature as I guess you know? Therefore the standard Map can adjust things for a lowered intake temperature developed by a FMIC ..... therefore, no re-map is needed.

Could you enlighten us as to what the normal temperature difference is between a FMIC and a TMIC .... I'm sure you have this basic information to hand.

p1mark

Incorrect Pete. Valve timing is controlled by the ECU on many models of Impreza. Harvey knows this and suckered you in nicely!

incorrect Pete. it controls many other things on top of what you say as already stated. It does take account of the relavent inputs but unfortunately intake (i.e the temperature of the compressed air) temp is not one of them. This is the main problem and shows why yours and ginge's argument is totally flawed.

As i said, it doesn't, Harvey knows this. The rest of this paragraph is therefore tosh.

Harvey does, i do as well. We have both monitored charge temps with different intercoolers. If he feels like not wasting his breath on you then i will when i have a bit more time. 'Normal temperature' is a bit of a misnoma though. you can only really go on 'above ambient'. Your post early on in the thread waffling about temps below the air temp shows how much you know as you can't do that with an air to air cooler wherever it's mounted.

Harvey, in case you did not realise Sunnysideup is Pslewis.

daves2rs

Game.......set................match..............

Im sure the OP has learned from the advice of the experts.

Harvey - PM sent

frayz

iTrader: (7)

So can i fit a GT4088 without a map then guys?

Or how bout a turbonator?

Mocom Racing

iTrader: (2)

The ECU measures inlet air temperature at the MAF therefore has no way of knowing the charge temperature from a FMIC or TMIC...........
















.............unless of course it's blow through

SunnySideUp

Thanks for that, a simple explaination without trying to be clever ......

-----------------------------------------------------------------

OK, so, as part of the re-map the temp sensor is moved? I didn't realise that and I doubt that happens. So same Info. fed into the ECU ... whether standard map or not - therefore the standard map can cope just as well?

No-one has answered my question as to what the Temperature drop is of the charge temperature when a FMIC is fitted instead of a TMIC ....... I suspect the reason is either:-

a. No-one actually knows, so advice to re-map is based on knowing nothing of importance ....... or ......

b. You do know, but don't want to say as it is well within the limits that the standard Map can deal with, ie. no re-map needed.

So, asking again, what is the Temp. drop?

p1mark

I think anyone would struggle to be as 'clever' and condascending as you are in your own posts Pete. You only get what you give out!

It is very difficult to quantify, it so depends on how close to the limit of not being able to cope the standard intercooler, what kind of use you are giving the car etc.

I can speak from my own experience which is not strictly what the OP was asking but will give you an idea of the difference. I was using a charge temp gauge (i.e not linked to the ECU but just a digital display in the cabin i could keep an eye on.

The turbo i was using was a 400 BHP capable one. The TMIC on the later STi's is known as being a lot better than the early ones and people use it up to around 400 BHP so i fitted one. The car was then mapped by a very highly respected mapper. It ran a treat, gave 370 BHP on a RR and felt very nice indeed to drive but....

It was to close to the edge. In reality it was not quite man enough and if you kept your toe in the charge temp just rose...and....rose.. When at about 50 degrees you could get a twinkle of det. When i say toe in, i mean a WOT run from say 2nd gear all the way up. If the ambient temp was say 15 degrees, then your ACT would be typically 5 or 6 degrees higher when you were off boost. So you could put your foot down and see a 30 degree rise in 1/2 a mile or so. With an ambient temp of say 0 degrees, it would still get up there, it just took longer.

So i put a front mount on - a hybrid - and drove it around a few weeks before i could get it mapped. Nothing else had changed which is why this is still relavent to the original thread question despite my car not running a standard map.

The car was mapped at 1.45 bar, and with the TMIC on it would hit this all the time. When i put the front mount on - with the same map - it was up in 1.7-1.8 bar territory, which on standard rods and pistons is asking for trouble - so it needed remapping, which is the proper way to do it instead of the slightly iffy things that Ginge seems to suggest.

As for the temps, off boost and cruising maybe only a degree or 2 different to the TMIC, typically 4 or d degrees above ambient. However, when you hoofed it the temp would very slowly creep up to maybe a maximum of 20 degrees above ambient and it would take well over a mile to get there.

The car gave 403 and 405 BHP on 2 sepererate dyno runs once it had been mapped and was boosting back down in the 1.4-1.5 bar region.

In anyones language that is a big difference.

As a side note, if you get stuck in a traffic jam with a TMIC on, i could see over 70 degrees! (the gauge stopped at 70) purely down to the heat soak into the large lump of conductive ally sitting on top of the engine. Imagine feeling fruity and toeing it at 70 degrees.....

With a FMIC you get a small amount of soak into the thin pipework in the engine bay but the second you start moving and the air flows through the nice cool intercooler you are back down to ambient + a few degrees.

There are some down sides to FMIC's. Keeping temps down and giving good power aren't on the list though.

SunnySideUp

Thanks for that Mark ..... wish people would stop calling me Pete!

I'm still of the view that changing to a FMIC from a TMIC is the very same as the difference between a warm day and a very warm day .... and as such haven't been convinced that a re-map is needed if that is the single mod which has been carried out (the OP just wants to look cool, remember?).

harvey

iTrader: (48)

This is very confusing. Ginge are you Pete as in P Lewis ?
Before my involvement with these two threads this week I was already aware, a few weeks ago, that Ginge was some kind of wind up merchant.

I thought that Pete was barred from this BBS for some haneous crime?

No doubt some vigilant moderator can check out if Pete is Ginge or indeed if Sunny Side Up and Ginge are one and the same.

P1Mark : Thanks for the info. Indeed earlier today I was told by someone else whose judgement and opinion I regard as sound that Ginge was PSL. At the time I was prepared to have an open mind and let things take their course.

p1mark

I think you are the type of person - pete - who's opinion will never be swayed despite any amount of evidence or advice from people like Harvey and Alan G who do actually have experience of what they are talikng about. Your 'engineering experience' always means you know better

Harvey. Yes PSlewis was banned. He has appeared as 2 of his many other usernames in this thread as Sunnysideup and Petes dad. I would be suprised if Ginge is pete. The one thing you can praise Pete for is his spelling and punctuation and don't think anyone could say that about Ginge! Posting style is completely different. In that respect pete is a one off (or actually about 10 off if you count all his usernames).

harvey

iTrader: (48)

What a sad existence some people must lead.
I had no idea about Petesdad but funnily enough, conclude he was a twonk too.

Why have such useless input and debase the value of S/Net, particularly for newer members with a genuine wish to learn more things Subaru? Sad if that is what floats your boat.

PetesDad

You have rather lost your argument by stating that people who question your vested opinion are twonks Which is a shame as you were doing a valiant job.

You still haven't answered the major question, which surprises me, I'll repeat it incase you missed it ...... what is the Temperature Drop of the charge air from a FMIC over a TMIC?

We all know that it is LESS than the difference between a hot summers day and a not so hot summers day and this is the crux of the matter - isn't it? If this is the case, you are also saying that the ECU needs a Re-Map each day if the Ambient Temp differs ....... which backs up my statement that a re-map is not needed if a FMIC is the only Mod. carried out (the OP initial question).

p1mark

You are just on a wind up and trolling now pete. Stop being a ****.

To the OP, if you want some genuine info on stuff like this then post in the technical forums. Pslewis/Sunnysideup/MRree/Petes dad/Friartook etc..etc..is scared to post in there as his inadequacies become glaringly obvious even quicker than they do in the non technical forums.

PetesDad

No trolling and no wind-up ......

I do not venture into Technical Areas, as you know ..... it would just wind ME up with some of the stuff peddled as facts there.

But I genuinely interested in this statement that a re-map is needed for a single TMIC to FMIC swap ....... it's untrue and I haven't be given any absolute reason to change my mind (just opinions the same as I have!)

Phildodd06

I didnt want to post in the tecnical section as i wanted to avoid Biased advise from the actual mappers.

I figured if i got oppnions from people that did not make money from a remap then they would not hav a biased oppnion.

If that makes sense? lol

.PetesDad

Makes sense .... I have no links to mappers, no links to anything but common sense in actual fact.

Take my common sense approach and it all becomes crystal clear ... there are too many vested interests which love to cloud the issue and scare people into parting with their money for dubious reasons and it makes my blood boil.

Just ask yourself one thing ..... can your standard map cope well with a winters day and a summers day? If the answer is yes, as we know it is, then it can cope with the small drop in intake temperature which may be the result of a FMIC.

Anyone who tells you otherwise I would suggest is not an Engineer.

serega

Have an uprated fuel pump, have a boost gauge and a knocklink and fit whatever you want. Your ecu should be able to cope, but i wouldnt blindly hope for it.

If you see that your boost has gone way up and knocklink starts lighting up, then you'll need a remap or at least a rudimentary boost controller like dawes device to turn the boost down - if everything as it was with tmic then i see no reason for a remap other than to release a few ponies and save a bit on petrol.

Ginge !

iTrader: (1)

mate im just one person, i aint into internet extra names

ive been playing with cars for a good few years and looked at different ecu's

i cant belive that the scoobie ecu ONLY measures before the maf though and NO T the compressed air in the plenum like every other car ive ever seen

is this true or make belive or am i gonn have to take my inlet off at work to find the answer ?

if this forum is what it seems,, and thats other member adding infomation and misleading what others are saying to help back another member,,, then i cant see the point of a discussion forum

if your boost RAISES but fitting a new i/c then theres a issue there surely ?

oh and i NEVER said fit and forget,, ive ALWAYS said get the fueling checked on a set up,,,,, as with ANY mod including a exhaust/filter and colder plugs

when i get the time i will run a test,,, with TOTALLY TRUE results as i got no interest in lying about anything,,,, i dont fix cars for a living, i dont sell tuning parts for a living

just thought i would add my HONEST OPINION based on experience with the theory behind it also to help convice the doubters

aint bothered who belives me tbh as KNOWING the amount of garages i deal with every day for warranty claims i see LOADS of garages who aint got a clue what there doing who have a loyal following though