FMIC
12 July 2008, 08:35 AM
#121
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Yes, it does measure before the MAF Ginge!
It's on the air intake pipe under bonnet before it goes into the inner wing, where there is a chamber which exits back out of the inner wing, through the MAF sensor and into the turbo via the inlet pipe under the manifold.
It's on the air intake pipe under bonnet before it goes into the inner wing, where there is a chamber which exits back out of the inner wing, through the MAF sensor and into the turbo via the inlet pipe under the manifold.
12 July 2008, 08:54 AM
#123
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*If* that is the case, then the turbo would have been working harder to achieve the target boost than necessary and as such creating higher air temps than necessary, so if a more efficient intercooler brings about a higher boost pressure, then it stands to reason that lowering it back down to its' target boost pressure will help maintain acceptable air temps and an easier working life for the turbo.
12 July 2008, 01:12 PM
#124
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mate im just one person, i aint into internet extra names
ive been playing with cars for a good few years and looked at different ecu's
i cant belive that the scoobie ecu ONLY measures before the maf though and NO T the compressed air in the plenum like every other car ive ever seen
is this true or make belive or am i gonn have to take my inlet off at work to find the answer ?
if this forum is what it seems,, and thats other member adding infomation and misleading what others are saying to help back another member,,, then i cant see the point of a discussion forum
if your boost RAISES but fitting a new i/c then theres a issue there surely ?
oh and i NEVER said fit and forget,, ive ALWAYS said get the fueling checked on a set up,,,,, as with ANY mod including a exhaust/filter and colder plugs
when i get the time i will run a test,,, with TOTALLY TRUE results as i got no interest in lying about anything,,,, i dont fix cars for a living, i dont sell tuning parts for a living
just thought i would add my HONEST OPINION based on experience with the theory behind it also to help convice the doubters
aint bothered who belives me tbh as KNOWING the amount of garages i deal with every day for warranty claims i see LOADS of garages who aint got a clue what there doing who have a loyal following though
ive been playing with cars for a good few years and looked at different ecu's
i cant belive that the scoobie ecu ONLY measures before the maf though and NO T the compressed air in the plenum like every other car ive ever seen
is this true or make belive or am i gonn have to take my inlet off at work to find the answer ?
if this forum is what it seems,, and thats other member adding infomation and misleading what others are saying to help back another member,,, then i cant see the point of a discussion forum
if your boost RAISES but fitting a new i/c then theres a issue there surely ?
oh and i NEVER said fit and forget,, ive ALWAYS said get the fueling checked on a set up,,,,, as with ANY mod including a exhaust/filter and colder plugs
when i get the time i will run a test,,, with TOTALLY TRUE results as i got no interest in lying about anything,,,, i dont fix cars for a living, i dont sell tuning parts for a living
just thought i would add my HONEST OPINION based on experience with the theory behind it also to help convice the doubters
aint bothered who belives me tbh as KNOWING the amount of garages i deal with every day for warranty claims i see LOADS of garages who aint got a clue what there doing who have a loyal following though
Lots of vested interests post on here, the common sense approach rarely gets airtime.
A FMIC may cool the intake air a small amount; as has been said - like a colder day than a summers day (although this summer is like winter!!
) the standard map copes with that without trouble and certainly without engine problems.
12 July 2008, 06:06 PM
#125
If boost rises after a change of intercooler only, then the intercooler must be restrictive. Now if it *is* restrictive, then it's been designed to slow down the flow of air through the 'cooler to give time to get the air temp down before it goes into the engine.
*If* that is the case, then the turbo would have been working harder to achieve the target boost than necessary and as such creating higher air temps than necessary, so if a more efficient intercooler brings about a higher boost pressure, then it stands to reason that lowering it back down to its' target boost pressure will help maintain acceptable air temps and an easier working life for the turbo.
*If* that is the case, then the turbo would have been working harder to achieve the target boost than necessary and as such creating higher air temps than necessary, so if a more efficient intercooler brings about a higher boost pressure, then it stands to reason that lowering it back down to its' target boost pressure will help maintain acceptable air temps and an easier working life for the turbo.
restriction is not a good thing,, designing something to slow the air is bad,,, the idea of a efficent engine is to get it to consume as much air as possible as the quicker it consumes the air,, meaning more flow means more power would you not say
oh and again,,, there is NO measurement of ACT on a scoobie APART from on the air box ???
there is NO ACT in the inlet,,,, you sure about that ???
why would ANY ecu read abient temp rather than the actual CHARGED air ??
the temp of the air inside the plenum is MORE important than the air under the bonnet when we are talking about ignition timing,,, if thats the case im gonna ripp off my MINES ecu this weekend and fit my SECS ecu off a cossie and fit the sensors to make it work as thats the WORST design of a ecu since they first came onto the early cars back in late 70's
12 July 2008, 06:33 PM
#126
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It's extremely difficult to understand how the simple act of fitting a FMIC, without any other mods., results in calls for a re-map.
I am still of the opinion that the only difference the standard ECU sees is that it happens to be a slightly colder day than it was yesterday (with the TMIC) ...... and will happily adjust things accordingly.
But each owner must take whatever 'truth' they feel happier with.
I am still of the opinion that the only difference the standard ECU sees is that it happens to be a slightly colder day than it was yesterday (with the TMIC) ...... and will happily adjust things accordingly.
But each owner must take whatever 'truth' they feel happier with.
12 July 2008, 07:17 PM
#127
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The issue of boost pressure isn't a cover all, the density ratio will change with increased IC efficiency, thus more air at a lower pressure, but a greater density... the charge air temperature at the inlet is now totally un-related to the intake temperature at the MAF. The need for a re-map is to extract the maximum performance available, I drove around with a huge IC fitted, and my car still made 65 bhp more after the re-map, without affecting overall fuel consumption.
All IMHO
DunxC
All IMHO
DunxC
12 July 2008, 07:35 PM
#128
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so if the boost raises when the i/c is changed thats a bad thing no ? It's a bad thing if your boost has risen beyond that which it is mapped
restriction is not a good thing,, designing something to slow the air is bad,,,there may be reasons for this, such as cost of the component. If you can use a cheaper component, but counteract its deficiencies by other means i.e. alter the boost control strategy to obtain the target boost without working the turbo beyond its' design limits, then why not save a few Yen.
the idea of a efficent engine is to get it to consume as much air as possible as the quicker it consumes the air,, meaning more flow means more power would you not say Easy in, easy out. A more *efficient* engine is one that can consume air easily and expel exhaust gasses easily.
oh and again,,, there is NO measurement of ACT on a scoobie APART from on the air box ??? On classic Impreza's at least, correct
there is NO ACT in the inlet,,,, you sure about that ??? On classic Impreza's, 100%
why would ANY ecu read abient temp rather than the actual CHARGED air ?? don't ask me, ask Subaru why they do it
the temp of the air inside the plenum is MORE important than the air under the bonnet when we are talking about ignition timing,,, if thats the case im gonna ripp off my MINES ecu this weekend and fit my SECS ecu off a cossie and fit the sensors to make it work as thats the WORST design of a ecu since they first came onto the early cars back in late 70's enjoy re-wiring your secs ecu to the Subaru loom
restriction is not a good thing,, designing something to slow the air is bad,,,there may be reasons for this, such as cost of the component. If you can use a cheaper component, but counteract its deficiencies by other means i.e. alter the boost control strategy to obtain the target boost without working the turbo beyond its' design limits, then why not save a few Yen.
the idea of a efficent engine is to get it to consume as much air as possible as the quicker it consumes the air,, meaning more flow means more power would you not say Easy in, easy out. A more *efficient* engine is one that can consume air easily and expel exhaust gasses easily.
oh and again,,, there is NO measurement of ACT on a scoobie APART from on the air box ??? On classic Impreza's at least, correct
there is NO ACT in the inlet,,,, you sure about that ??? On classic Impreza's, 100%
why would ANY ecu read abient temp rather than the actual CHARGED air ?? don't ask me, ask Subaru why they do it
the temp of the air inside the plenum is MORE important than the air under the bonnet when we are talking about ignition timing,,, if thats the case im gonna ripp off my MINES ecu this weekend and fit my SECS ecu off a cossie and fit the sensors to make it work as thats the WORST design of a ecu since they first came onto the early cars back in late 70's enjoy re-wiring your secs ecu to the Subaru loom
12 July 2008, 07:49 PM
#129
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It's extremely difficult to understand how the simple act of fitting a FMIC, without any other mods., results in calls for a re-map.
I am still of the opinion that the only difference the standard ECU sees is that it happens to be a slightly colder day than it was yesterday (with the TMIC) ...... and will happily adjust things accordingly.
But each owner must take whatever 'truth' they feel happier with.
I am still of the opinion that the only difference the standard ECU sees is that it happens to be a slightly colder day than it was yesterday (with the TMIC) ...... and will happily adjust things accordingly.
But each owner must take whatever 'truth' they feel happier with.
We don't buy things to make things worse, we buy things to increase safety or increase enjoyment in whatever floats our boat.
13 July 2008, 12:11 AM
#130
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An aftermarket FMIC will almost certainly have less pressure drop than the OEM TMIC.
The lower restriction can and will lead to an overboost situation and can produce higher manifold air pressure.
Higher MAP, amongst other signals, alters the load determined by the ECU.
The ECU has a pre-determined max load value set by Subaru/Denso/Prodrive/Your mapper to suit the factory specification, exceed this load scale and the ECU is in no mans land
13 July 2008, 09:10 AM
#131
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I wouldn't suggest a remap is neccessary but the car should be checked that it is operating safely.
An aftermarket FMIC will almost certainly have less pressure drop than the OEM TMIC.
The lower restriction can and will lead to an overboost situation and can produce higher manifold air pressure.
Higher MAP, amongst other signals, alters the load determined by the ECU.
The ECU has a pre-determined max load value set by Subaru/Denso/Prodrive/Your mapper to suit the factory specification, exceed this load scale and the ECU is in no mans land
An aftermarket FMIC will almost certainly have less pressure drop than the OEM TMIC.
The lower restriction can and will lead to an overboost situation and can produce higher manifold air pressure.
Higher MAP, amongst other signals, alters the load determined by the ECU.
The ECU has a pre-determined max load value set by Subaru/Denso/Prodrive/Your mapper to suit the factory specification, exceed this load scale and the ECU is in no mans land
You mention pressure drop ... pressure drop of what?
Unless I'm missing something, I thought the only thing that an Intercooler did was cool the intake air by a simple matter of heat exchange - ie. the intake air is cooled remotely ...... how does this affect the pressure of the air entering the cylinders, as it is simply a bit cooler?
How does the standard ECU Map adjust for a cold day in Norway as opposed to a hot day in Australia? Is this (possible 30C) temperature change outside of the parameters of the standard map?
Is what you are say that the extra piping would result in a drop in pressure? That I can appreciate.
Last edited by SunnySideUp; 13 July 2008 at 09:12 AM.
13 July 2008, 10:11 AM
#132
Thanks for your input.
You mention pressure drop ... pressure drop of what?
Unless I'm missing something, I thought the only thing that an Intercooler did was cool the intake air by a simple matter of heat exchange - ie. the intake air is cooled remotely ...... how does this affect the pressure of the air entering the cylinders, as it is simply a bit cooler?
How does the standard ECU Map adjust for a cold day in Norway as opposed to a hot day in Australia? Is this (possible 30C) temperature change outside of the parameters of the standard map?
Is what you are say that the extra piping would result in a drop in pressure? That I can appreciate.
You mention pressure drop ... pressure drop of what?
Unless I'm missing something, I thought the only thing that an Intercooler did was cool the intake air by a simple matter of heat exchange - ie. the intake air is cooled remotely ...... how does this affect the pressure of the air entering the cylinders, as it is simply a bit cooler?
How does the standard ECU Map adjust for a cold day in Norway as opposed to a hot day in Australia? Is this (possible 30C) temperature change outside of the parameters of the standard map?
Is what you are say that the extra piping would result in a drop in pressure? That I can appreciate.
Pressure drop through the intercooler.
The stock MAP will have a boost target. The boost target is the required boost the turbo has to try and produce in order to create the correct boost at the manifold. So its quite possible that you may have to make 1.7 bar at the turbo in order to make 1.5 bar at the manifold due to the restriction of the intercooler.
If the intercooler is restrictive as standard then the turbo will be working harder to try and force the required airflow through the intercooler.
Replace that restrictive cooler with a freer flowing item and now the turbo is not working as hard. So can boost easier.
The MAP "unchanged" has the same boost target thus could end up now overboosting with the less restrictive intercooler fitted.
This possible overboost can cause a lean condition by the MAP now operating off of its load scale...
Does this now make sense?
13 July 2008, 12:01 PM
#133
Pressure drop through the intercooler.
The stock MAP will have a boost target. The boost target is the required boost the turbo has to try and produce in order to create the correct boost at the manifold. So its quite possible that you may have to make 1.7 bar at the turbo in order to make 1.5 bar at the manifold due to the restriction of the intercooler.
If the intercooler is restrictive as standard then the turbo will be working harder to try and force the required airflow through the intercooler.
Replace that restrictive cooler with a freer flowing item and now the turbo is not working as hard. So can boost easier.
The MAP "unchanged" has the same boost target thus could end up now overboosting with the less restrictive intercooler fitted.
This possible overboost can cause a lean condition by the MAP now operating off of its load scale...
Does this now make sense?
The stock MAP will have a boost target. The boost target is the required boost the turbo has to try and produce in order to create the correct boost at the manifold. So its quite possible that you may have to make 1.7 bar at the turbo in order to make 1.5 bar at the manifold due to the restriction of the intercooler.
If the intercooler is restrictive as standard then the turbo will be working harder to try and force the required airflow through the intercooler.
Replace that restrictive cooler with a freer flowing item and now the turbo is not working as hard. So can boost easier.
The MAP "unchanged" has the same boost target thus could end up now overboosting with the less restrictive intercooler fitted.
This possible overboost can cause a lean condition by the MAP now operating off of its load scale...
Does this now make sense?
no cause the maf sensor is STILL measuring the flow of air INTO the turbo,,,,, flow of air will increase in your senario and so the maf will adjust it to match
im still worried about the idea if measuring the air temp BEFORE the intercooler !!!!
13 July 2008, 04:28 PM
#137
made understand what DET is first then reply with the stupid comments, det is PRE IGNITION that your refering to screwing the big ends
the standard map is a OVER SAFE MAP,,,, thats the point i was getting at which none of you seem to understand
how many cars melt with a remap due to a error with a sensor or a extra load on the electrics from a fan ect,,, on a standard car how many melt,,,,, ever wondered why ??
why do cars go better with JUST a remap ??? its cause the cars got a safe run of the mill map fitted
how many turbo cars have you own,,, how many cars you built with turbos fitted and modded for more power or do you just drive to a garage ?
13 July 2008, 08:57 PM
#139
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Pressure drop through the intercooler.
The stock MAP will have a boost target. The boost target is the required boost the turbo has to try and produce in order to create the correct boost at the manifold. So its quite possible that you may have to make 1.7 bar at the turbo in order to make 1.5 bar at the manifold due to the restriction of the intercooler.
If the intercooler is restrictive as standard then the turbo will be working harder to try and force the required airflow through the intercooler.
Replace that restrictive cooler with a freer flowing item and now the turbo is not working as hard. So can boost easier.
The MAP "unchanged" has the same boost target thus could end up now overboosting with the less restrictive intercooler fitted.
This possible overboost can cause a lean condition by the MAP now operating off of its load scale...
Does this now make sense?
The stock MAP will have a boost target. The boost target is the required boost the turbo has to try and produce in order to create the correct boost at the manifold. So its quite possible that you may have to make 1.7 bar at the turbo in order to make 1.5 bar at the manifold due to the restriction of the intercooler.
If the intercooler is restrictive as standard then the turbo will be working harder to try and force the required airflow through the intercooler.
Replace that restrictive cooler with a freer flowing item and now the turbo is not working as hard. So can boost easier.
The MAP "unchanged" has the same boost target thus could end up now overboosting with the less restrictive intercooler fitted.
This possible overboost can cause a lean condition by the MAP now operating off of its load scale...
Does this now make sense?
A restrictive IC (a standard TMIC) has the Intake Air 'trapped' within it for longer ... therefore cooled better. Now if a FMIC is a lot less restrictive, by definition the intake air is allowed to flow through so much quicker - hence much less time to cool down ...................
This means that a FMIC doesn't cool the air as well as the TMIC? I'm going bonkers
13 July 2008, 09:49 PM
#141
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made understand what DET is first then reply with the stupid comments, det is PRE IGNITION that your refering to screwing the big ends
the standard map is a OVER SAFE MAP,,,, thats the point i was getting at which none of you seem to understand
how many cars melt with a remap due to a error with a sensor or a extra load on the electrics from a fan ect,,, on a standard car how many melt,,,,, ever wondered why ??
why do cars go better with JUST a remap ??? its cause the cars got a safe run of the mill map fitted
how many turbo cars have you own,,, how many cars you built with turbos fitted and modded for more power or do you just drive to a garage ?
the standard map is a OVER SAFE MAP,,,, thats the point i was getting at which none of you seem to understand
how many cars melt with a remap due to a error with a sensor or a extra load on the electrics from a fan ect,,, on a standard car how many melt,,,,, ever wondered why ??
why do cars go better with JUST a remap ??? its cause the cars got a safe run of the mill map fitted
how many turbo cars have you own,,, how many cars you built with turbos fitted and modded for more power or do you just drive to a garage ?
There are at least 4 people on this thread who i would bet a months wages on knowing more about Impreza's and some of their quirks - Ranging from Mapping, building engines, general tuning etc. Pete's dad / sunny side up is not one of them by the way
of course the standard map is a tad on the safe side, it has to be, and everyone understands this but thats not the point. You seem to be a biy up your own **** as about 4 seperate people have told you that charge temp is not measured, only the inlet temp at the airbox, and you still refuse to believe it.
Loads of Subaru's have 'melted' as you call it on the standard map, normally as a result of the fragile MAF sensor on certain MY cars.
Stop posting with loads of stupid comma's everywhwere, you look like you have a bad affliction.
13 July 2008, 11:01 PM
#142
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You got me reminiscing with that comment.. .
Only 5. The first one was back in '86.... Ahh.. them were the days....
22 years ago! Gulp! 
Every one of them tuned to different degrees of advancement. By far, the most powerful and satisfying has been the Impreza to date and the most enjoyable in terms of learning. Second most satisfying was the first one, the rest for so so cars, but still good fun thinking back on them.
13 July 2008, 11:04 PM
#143
BUT ive since discovered this,,,, such a poor design for a car that could be tuned
14 July 2008, 07:41 AM
#144
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Just because you see a lot of cars in your job does not make you an expert though does it - fairly obviously
Alan G has been there and written the book with his own car many times, harvey as well, but i don't think either of them would be as pompous to try and big themselves up in the way you do.
You have the endearing quality of spouting off and then when shown to be incorrect ignoring the fact.
Alan G has been there and written the book with his own car many times, harvey as well, but i don't think either of them would be as pompous to try and big themselves up in the way you do.
You have the endearing quality of spouting off and then when shown to be incorrect ignoring the fact.
14 July 2008, 10:05 AM
#146
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I think we do. What needs to happen is people need to be less defensive about what they believe to be the truth.
We all know that a lot of myth surrounds things on here - it's cutting all that away from the real facts that is the challenge.
I goes like this:- Tommy the Tuner says something about tuning, that is repeated somewhere else (now taken out of context), it is repeated at the next local meet (with another twist), Henry the Hobbyist and Gary the Geek then hear about it and apply their strange logic to it and, worse, post it up as fact on a BBS somewhere! ......
....... so, when Tommy the Tuner said that an engine starved of oil will blow up when raced at 150MPH - it transpires into "Cheap Oil makes your engine blow up after 150 miles!" and lots believe it!!
We all know that a lot of myth surrounds things on here - it's cutting all that away from the real facts that is the challenge.
I goes like this:- Tommy the Tuner says something about tuning, that is repeated somewhere else (now taken out of context), it is repeated at the next local meet (with another twist), Henry the Hobbyist and Gary the Geek then hear about it and apply their strange logic to it and, worse, post it up as fact on a BBS somewhere! ......
....... so, when Tommy the Tuner said that an engine starved of oil will blow up when raced at 150MPH - it transpires into "Cheap Oil makes your engine blow up after 150 miles!"
and lots believe it!!
14 July 2008, 02:13 PM
#147
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I think we do. What needs to happen is people need to be less defensive about what they believe to be the truth.
We all know that a lot of myth surrounds things on here - it's cutting all that away from the real facts that is the challenge.
I goes like this:- Tommy the Tuner says something about tuning, that is repeated somewhere else (now taken out of context), it is repeated at the next local meet (with another twist), Henry the Hobbyist and Gary the Geek then hear about it and apply their strange logic to it and, worse, post it up as fact on a BBS somewhere! ......
....... so, when Tommy the Tuner said that an engine starved of oil will blow up when raced at 150MPH - it transpires into "Cheap Oil makes your engine blow up after 150 miles!" and lots believe it!!
We all know that a lot of myth surrounds things on here - it's cutting all that away from the real facts that is the challenge.
I goes like this:- Tommy the Tuner says something about tuning, that is repeated somewhere else (now taken out of context), it is repeated at the next local meet (with another twist), Henry the Hobbyist and Gary the Geek then hear about it and apply their strange logic to it and, worse, post it up as fact on a BBS somewhere! ......
....... so, when Tommy the Tuner said that an engine starved of oil will blow up when raced at 150MPH - it transpires into "Cheap Oil makes your engine blow up after 150 miles!"
and lots believe it!! 
14 July 2008, 08:34 PM
#148
It is very sad that a small number of people who have clearly demonstrated their lack of indepth knowledge try to put forward a view that if followed by the unsuspecting owner could prove very costly.
Fitting a Hybrid front mount intercooler to a New Age car needs a remap. There is no question of this for a number of reasons.
Fitting a front mount intercooler to a Classic car without a remap is a risky business and at best, the performance derived from the modification will be well below par and anyone who is prepared to fit an FMIC without then having their AFRs checked as a minimum, is at the very least foolhardy.
Some people appear to gain satisfaction in the activity outlined above. This is a reckless, despicable character trait and hopefully the unsuspecting lesser experienced members will avoid disasterous consequences.
Lack of knowledge is no problem but ignorance coupled with repeated bad advice is unacceptable and has no place on this board.
Fitting a Hybrid front mount intercooler to a New Age car needs a remap. There is no question of this for a number of reasons.
Fitting a front mount intercooler to a Classic car without a remap is a risky business and at best, the performance derived from the modification will be well below par and anyone who is prepared to fit an FMIC without then having their AFRs checked as a minimum, is at the very least foolhardy.
Some people appear to gain satisfaction in the activity outlined above. This is a reckless, despicable character trait and hopefully the unsuspecting lesser experienced members will avoid disasterous consequences.
Lack of knowledge is no problem but ignorance coupled with repeated bad advice is unacceptable and has no place on this board.
14 July 2008, 10:21 PM
#149
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I think, this has covered about every question and doubt i may of had.
This was the kind of debate/dispute/difrent views i wanted
I would not of got all this depth from the tech section.
I now know its bad and for what reason, not just 'its bad because it does this...'
Thanks guys for all your input and diffrent views, it has made me understand it very well.
Just for the record i will not be fitting a FMIC, but if i do decide to in the near future it will be closly followed by a remap.
This was the kind of debate/dispute/difrent views i wanted
I would not of got all this depth from the tech section.
I now know its bad and for what reason, not just 'its bad because it does this...'
Thanks guys for all your input and diffrent views, it has made me understand it very well.
Just for the record i will not be fitting a FMIC, but if i do decide to in the near future it will be closly followed by a remap.
14 July 2008, 11:45 PM
#150
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I think, this has covered about every question and doubt i may of had.
This was the kind of debate/dispute/difrent views i wanted
I would not of got all this depth from the tech section.
I now know its bad and for what reason, not just 'its bad because it does this...'
Thanks guys for all your input and diffrent views, it has made me understand it very well.
Just for the record i will not be fitting a FMIC, but if i do decide to in the near future it will be closly followed by a remap.
This was the kind of debate/dispute/difrent views i wanted
I would not of got all this depth from the tech section.
I now know its bad and for what reason, not just 'its bad because it does this...'
Thanks guys for all your input and diffrent views, it has made me understand it very well.
Just for the record i will not be fitting a FMIC, but if i do decide to in the near future it will be closly followed by a remap.