PeteBrant

She has no "say" Les. She does exactly what she is told with regards to dissolving parliament.

Like I said if she refused any request from Paliament with regards to enacting legislation, or dissplove or opening parliment she may as well sign a proclomation of a republic whilst she is at it.

Evil Twin of Tarquin

Why?

Yes, it would more than likely go through the Commons but it would also have to through the Lords, where it would fail. Yes the Commons could push it through but I would imagine that there would be all sorts of legal challenges.

PeteBrant

If the Queen tried to block any sort of political process, both the commons and Lords would be up in arms. Not to mention half the country.

Royalty in Britian survived obliteration by becoming a parlimentary monarchy after the civil war.

Evil Twin of Tarquin

You may be right but give it 6 more months of decline and I think even members of the "not so commie pinko subversive any more" party would probably back the queen disolving parliament.

Maybe that is what this country needs - a return to a divine and absolute monarchy, un-fettered by the dictats of party politics.

PeteBrant

So what you're saying, is rather than to be able to vote out of power those we don't like, we should instead have a dictatorship to expediate the demise of Messrs Brown and friends.

How do you get rid of the dictatorship once you have had anough of that though?

Evil Twin of Tarquin

Firstly why would I want to?

Secondly, do you really think they would make more of a fücking mess than the all the post war govenments have conspired to create? Are you insane? We have politicians on the take, we have them pushing through things that nobody wants: poll tax, numerous wars, spiralling national debt, need I go on?

PS when you've finished with them, may I borrow your rose tinted spectacles?

PeteBrant

Interesting theory! But I'll stick with democracy , thanks

Martin2005

You seem hysterical - it's not THAT bad mate

Evil Twin of Tarquin

Hysterical? Why?

Are you seriously trying to tell me that this country isn't going to the dogs, if it hasn't already arrived, built a house and started a family?

Do you believe that Gordon the Gopher and his cronies are doing a good job? That Smarmy Cameron and his ilk would do any different? That Maggie, Major, Callaghan, Atlee, Eden et al all did a splendid job of running this country? Really? We have gone from a world power to a second rate nation. The only things we actually top the tables in are government surveillance, teen pregnancies and chavism. We come pretty close to the top on personal debt and binge drinking too.

I don't see it as hysteria just a simple stating of the facts.

PeteBrant

We aren't a second rate nation, we are the fifth largest economy in the world. Not bad for a country with a relatively small population and even smaller land mass.

The second world war spelled the end of the British Empire, regardless of which perosn or party was in power, there was nothing they could do to stop it.

I don;t think this country has gone to the dogs for a second. There are things that I would change about it, there are things I don't like. But still think that it is an extrodinary stroke of good fortune to be born British.

Martin2005

Is there any point in the history of our nation (or any other for that matter), when a literny of things going wrong couldn't be written?

We are not a second rate nation, we still are a world power both economically and politically, unless of course you believe we need an empire again?

Evil Twin of Tarquin

5th largest economy? By what measure?

Rankings out of 188 countries:

GDP? 8th
GDP growth (real growth rate)? 164th
Per capita GDP? 30th
Unemployment rate? 54th
Inflation? 57th
Public debt as a %age of GDP? 50th
Industrial production growth rate? 165th
Current account balance? 186th Only Spain and the US are worse! Zimbabwe is in a better current account position.
Gold reserves? 25th

Pretty impressive!

Martin, a world power economically and politically? Again, by what measures. Or are you just basing that statement on historical privilege? Hell, even Zimbabwe ignores us

PeteBrant

According to nomnal GDP we are 5th.
GDP per capita we are 10th

GDP growth is pretty irrelevant - A very poor country may well have a much higher growth rate than the biggest economy in the world.

Unemployment rate is relevant verus the western world. Which we rate pretty well in.

Similar for inflation

Public debt is rising, but still less than France, US, Japan, Germany


Industrial production growth rate again is not altogether relevant seeing as we export most of our manufacturing.

Current account balance? US are worse? That would be the richest nation on the planet US, or another US?

Zimbabwe are in a better current position than us how, exactly?

We are on the permanent scurity council, we are part of the G8, we are a Nuclear power.

London, is of course, the financial capital of the world.

By any measure any measure, the UK is not a "second rate" nation.

Martin2005

Well we are the 5th biggest economy (for the time being at least)thats just a fact.
As for politically; we are at the top table, permanent 5 member of the UN, Nuclear power and all that.

Those measures you quote are for what period exactly?? And I guess if you measure our growth and output measures you need to compare it to similar mature economies not emerging ones.

We've had a reasonable good economic run for about 15 years, sooner or later things slow down, which is certainly the case at present.

Evil Twin of Tarquin

All my figures are based on 2007.

As for only comparing the measures to mature countries why? The statement made was "in the world", not "in the mature economies of the world".

Pete, Zimbabwe is in a better position than us on its current account in that it only owes $116,000,000 whereas the UK owes a not insignificant $136,200,000,000. As for the US being the richest nation on earth, since when does having your current account overdrawn by $738,600,000,000 make you rich?

Hmm I think that you may have bought a little too much into the "debt is good, savings is bad" culture

Martin2005

The Zimbabwe arguement is nonsense and you know it

As far as growth rates are concerned it's slightly unfair to compared very small economies growth rates with big western nations economies, afterall a reasonably small real money growth can have a big % impact on a small economy and no impact at all on a large one.

The US is the richest nation on earth, I can't believe you are even trying to dispute this fact.

We are not going to the dogs, we've always had problems, and of course being British, we've always overcome them

dpb

Well i hope theyre savouring it while it last

hoskib

iTrader: (1)

you guys either have a good understanding of what you're talking about or have a lot of facts at your finger tips, so i'll ask the question "what exactly do we make and export successfully in this country now"?

i work in the foundry industry, which has long since seen it's golden age i know, but we work with an awful lot of other trades and no-one can make stuff cheap enough to export and make good money. so is it all tech and telecomms that make this industrial production growth rate? i know we still do aerospace and a lot of design and work for F1 teams for example.

not having a pop at anyones views by the way, genuinely interested as to what makes this country appealing to any buyers

PeteBrant

To be honest I think our main export these days is expertise. The manufacturing industry as a whole is somewhat depressed.

In terms of product (and by that I mean manufactured goods) I think the UK still has an element of excellence to it, or if not excellence, then niche high quality product. Think Meridian and Kef, versus Panasonic and Denon.

A big chunk of UK GDP is in the financial sector. The square mile constitutes something ridiculous like 15% of GDP.

I think the fact is, concerning manufactured goods, is that if you are trying to offer a low cost item, you are never going to compete with china/india.

hoskib

iTrader: (1)

so really in terms of stuff you can pick up and use we don't make a lot do we. we sell off the back of a name but not products. big shame really

i agree completely with the expertise, one thing we've never been lacking is engineering, design and making that thing on the back of a sketch book reality.

there's still a lot of call for the old school approach to my line of work and we do still get some great ideas come through the door, but most won't ever come close to leaving these shores.

cheers for your input/opinion

Evil Twin of Tarquin

Pete,
"Industrial production growth rate again is not altogether relevant seeing as we export most of our manufacturing."

"To be honest I think our main export these days is expertise. The manufacturing industry as a whole is somewhat depressed."

Which is it Pete? I get easily confused as, apparently, do you

Evil Twin of Tarquin

I have £10 in my current account
You have an overdraft of £500

Who is richer? ie who has more money?

Martin2005

Well using your odd anology:

I (or the UK) have an overdraft and the ability to repay it, and get more credit if I need it.

Zimbabwe on the other hand have an overdraft (you said it earlier) an no means of repaying it, and no one is about to lend them money any time soon.

Plus of course inflation running at about 1,000,000%, a starving population, and the lowest life expectancy in the whole wide world, apart from that....

PeteBrant

We export our manufacturing.

For example, Dyson, moved its manufacture to Malaysia.

So whilst the company is a UK company, the manufacturing is done elsewhere. - Hence UK manufacure is depressed.

PeteBrant

What is in your bank account is not the sole meaure of wealth.

You could have £10 in your current account

I could be £500 overdrawn, which I used to buy gold a year ago.

I will be considerably "richer".

With regards to Uk vs zimbabwe

UK Public debt is currently just over £40billion. UK GDP is nigh on $2 trillion. UK Tax take is around £600billion

Zimabawe GDP is $26billion. Or to put it another way, half of the UKs defence budget.

The US has a GDP of around $13trillion, making it by far the worlds biggest economy. California alone, if it were a country, would be the fifth richest nation on earth.

Martin2005

Pete I've come to the conclusion that he's just trolling, no one could in all seriousness post what he posts without toungue firmly in cheek, we've both fed him enough already

dpb

oooh i reckon China are more tha willing to give um an iou in exchange for some mining concessions

dpb

Dont be daft its not depressed its been taken overseas ..!

PeteBrant

Well, depressed, reduced, taken overseas - All amounts to the same thing.

Martin2005

I think it's fair to say that our manufacturing output (particularly heavy industry) has been in steep decline for the past 3 decades or more.

We have an economy based largely upon the service and financial sector, this isn't a bad thing altogether though, as despite the decline in manufacturing our economy has grown and modernised. It questionable that we would be better off if we had tried to cling on to much of our manufacturing base, that we would have an economy the size we have today. Ultimately the market decides, and the market decided a while ago that we were just not competitive against the emerging economies.

Of course this has casued much pain and anguish for workers that lost jobs in the manufacturing sector, and we should of done more to help people who lost jobs in highly skilled but no longer needed trades.