PeteBrant

Agreed.
OK.
Good
God no, I wouldn't like to even try. No one here could. All we can offer is opinion and ideas.


Look, for all my bluster my main point is this; I do not want to see a genuine needy case be penalised for the sake of, say, me paying an extra penny a day in income tax.

I would rather 5 people be taking the **** and that one genhine case get the help they need, than the opposite.

I can perfectly accept that people may see it differently.

Spoon

Offence. Come on, Pete. Now going for the 'Spoons' picking on me' sympathy vote is spineless, if not highly amusing.

Your apology was accepted as explained previously.

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

TBF, there has to be some form of support out there for people unable to work, but the current system is being abused and I would stick my neck out and say it's by quite a large amount of people. I think common sense needs to be applied so that those who can't work, aren't trapped in the net with the workshy, but something definately needs to be done.

I am not a member of middle England, I have a crap job, earning rubbish money, yes that's my problem, and my fault, but that's the way it goes for some of us out there. However, I still stick it out, and although I would love for my life to be different, I will continue paying my way until that situation changes. I have no time for people who use the benefits system as a permanent means of income. fair play to those actually so disabled they cannot work, but not for those unwilling to work.

My next door neighbours up over, both on incapacity, tbh, they are getting on now, so it's probably not worth trying to get them in work now, but while I know she is unable to work, he could do something, he manages to walk his dog, go shopping and manage to get to the bookies. Next door down over man, woman, and 3 kids, also don't work. They are fit enough, young enough, but live on permanent holiday. Another person, whom I won't name, I offered to get them an application form for my work, shop, so nothing difficult, refused and said, they couldn't do that, then again who would want to go out to work after over 18 years of being kept.

I agree, something needs to be implemented as to not tar everyone with the same brush, but if a chunk of money can be saved by not allowing people to abuse the system, and maybe that money can be used to top up wages for those who are placed into low income jobs, so it no longer becomes a situation of being better off on benefits. I don't have all the answers, but then again, I'm not paid to work this **** out.

It's not just those better off that get frustrated by benefit abusers, but most people aren't unreasonable, and don't begrudge those genuinely in need.

PeteBrant

Ok, whatever. I am PMing my logon information to a Mod so they can see my exact activity. I'm not going to be accused of something I didn't do. I play it straight down the line on here.

I'm not going to derail this thread due to some issue you have with me, so you are welcome to PM me if you want to discuss.

Martin2005

I want you to tell me how much of a problem this actually is, how many children are being born purely for the purposes of getting more benefit, that will do for starters.

Spoon

Pete, nobody suggested you PM'd anybody?

Drugs?

scoobynutta555

I've not mentioned any right wing claptrap, just being a realist.


You're completely missing the point. If over a billion in fraud and incorrect payments is small beer to you, well?

Also, the very fact that benefits count for far any away more of gov't expenditure than anything else is abhorrent. The figure should be nowhere near it is. I'll say it again £133 BILLION PER YEAR

I'm responding to a thread about benefits and the proposed changes. If you want to debate about something else start a new thread. I'm quite happy to stick to the topic in hand as it's an easy argument.


In case you hadn't noticed the whole country is on the breadline in regards to public finances. Just look at the balance of payments. If the government were a person they'd be on benefits themselves living on the top floor flat of a 20 story building next to the lifts, hardly a winner is it.

Then you'd have 5 years to find another job?

Even a rudementary understanding of mathematics would show a 10 year old that the less you spend wastefully the more money you'll have to spend on something more worthwhile. There is little incentive for someone on low wages to work when you'd be better off on benefits.


Scan your forefinger every Thursday at the local cashpoint, sorry, benefits office and you'll have a far better understanding of how much fraud there is. That's really the trouble isn't it? The amount of fraud might be 10 times what the quoted figs are, who knows?

I don't get the general point of your replies. You seem to think I'm focusing on spongers and implying a life on benefit is easy. I'm not.

While you're here, I notice you've blanked this point in your quote fest:

"If illegal and illiterate immigrants from thousands of miles away risk their lives getting to these shores to work I can't see why someone is on long term unemployment here."

Martin2005

Just noticed this LOL

Because Pete and I agree on a few things (although we've had the disagreement too) then we must be the same person? Given your bizarre logic, then you must have about 20 aliases on here.

FFS man grow up

Shark Man

So the core issue really is to amend the system as such so the pisstakers are removed whilst the genuine cases get better benefit.

I don't think any reasonable person would argue with that.

Spoon

You start with a LOL then tell me to grow up? It was a joke because you do sound the same, like no other 2 on this board, and as for me sounding the same as 20 others on here, you are much mistaken.

You keep your keyboard warrior skills to yourself but be free with your opinions as that is the point of the board, there's a good chap.

PeteBrant

It is, as a percentage.

I mean we just spent £4billion on a computer system that doesnt work.


How do you know it should be no where near? What have you based that assessment on?

I was illustrating a point that you don't bring in measures to combat a small problems in relative terms that will affect everyone.


Government borrowing is less than it was in the 80's/90's. It is less than France (despite the fact we have a higher tax take) less than Germany, and the US and Japan.

Of course it is not ideal, but don't overstate it.


And if you can't?

Of course I agree with that sentiment; I am just not sure that recovering the waste is worth potentially damaging those with genuine need.

Indeed, and like I say, until we know exactly what the problem is, then how do you come up with an answer?

I'm not sure it's as simple as that. It's all a question of perspective. I mean Chinese cockle pickers may feel the risk/reward ratio is good, but your average person is going to say "**** off".

I take your point though, yes, ther eis work for some people if they looked harder for it; but I do think that where there is desperation there is an element of abuse of that desperation.

PeteBrant

Absolutely.

It's how we do that, that's the problem .

Martin2005

Is LOL childish then? In which case, I found your post fuking hillarious!

'keyboard warrior'???

So should I apologise for having some views similar to another SN member, which of course are somewhat different to the rabid views of most on here?

scoobynutta555

As a figure it is not small I'm up for savings in every dep't from wastefulness.


I don't have an ideal figure of what the expenditure should be. I do know however that it shouldn't be far and away the biggest thing our gov't spends on.

A mass of people claiming benefits that should otherwise be in a job is not a small problem.


I was on about balance of payments. In any case gov't borrowing is very high, and I'm sure I could cherry pick countries with far favourable situations.


Tough.


It could be argued that any money paid to claimants is a "waste".

I don't purport to have all the answers, I've come up with one possible solution instead of shooting everyone else's down.Tellingly I don't see your solution. I get the impression you're quite happy with the status quo.


The average person can say what they want safe in the knowledge that someone else will pay for their lifestyle via benefits. Chinese cockle pickers are here working as they know their gov't wouldn't tolerate someone sitting on their *** all day eating Doritos moaning of a lack of opportunities within staggering distance of their sofa.

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

Perhaps it should be less cash based, vouchers, a card or actual goods rather than the cash to buy them, ok some will say this stigmatises claimants, so what ?

Perhaps thats motivation to get working and for me, if I need a safety net I wouldnt care what it looked like.

Nobody should be buying luxuries with benefits, its for basic human needs, perhaps with a card system, i.e. like a Switch if you try to buy Blue WKD, **** and Scratch Cards it wont authorise but if you buy food, nappies and pay your utility bills it will.

The benefits system needs separating from the rest of the economy, to protect the needy and make it less advantageous for the career claimant.

There should be agressive reclaim of fraudulent payment, deportation for those from abroad if they abuse the system, look at what happens if you dont pay your income tax, they don't mess about.

I get annoyed when I hear what we pay immigrants, you land here having paid nothing, get given accomodation, benefits and even heating paid for, the idea of the system is to protect those who contribute, not the worlds waifs and strays, thats why it doenst work anymore, those who abuse it and us letting in all and sundry to take fromt he system, cant say I blame them really but why should I pay towards a Somali families heating to be maintained at a suitably high level when I may start struggling to pay my own this year, if they had stayed in Somalia they would be nice and toasty.

It used to be survival of the fittest, then we introduced the welfare state to protect the less fortunate, now we look after anyone who turns up and those who cant be arsed, plus all the genuine cases.

Pete, I admire your socialist stance, your milk of human kindness but I think you are really too generous and benevolent, but why do you think this government it turning up the taxation wick at every opportunity.

Spoon

No, let me explain as it appears both yourself and Pete have really struggled today to read posts properly and actually understand them. You started off with a LOL which is what people do when they laugh at something and don't take it seriously. That was exactly the way you were meant to react but then you went on to say grow up, in effect negating your LOL.

Easy one this. Opinions on here differ, that's quite normal, but you should always be aware that whatever you say that might be deemed offensive or aggressive you would be prepared to say to someones face, unless of course you know that person and have an understanding. I can assure you that you wouldn't tell me to grow up if you met me, therefore you are acting like a keyboard warrior.

How did you arrive at the reasoning from me jokingly saying you sound like Pete Brant that you need to apologise? Is playing the victim common too?

Anyway back on topic and lets hope you understand this post.

DCI Gene Hunt

"negating your LOL" FFS..........

Spoon

Even the wannabe Webmaster understood it.

PeteBrant

I dunno if it's socialist, like I said, I just struggle with genuine cases being impacted.

I can see the complaints people have with the benefit system, of course I can. I just don't know if this is the best solution.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Can I ask a question here?

IF, and I say IF, we have so few people unemployed, WHY have we so many on benefits?

SURELY Lying Labour haven't been HIDING the unemployed, have they?

Alcazar

GC8

Unfortunately, we have a social problem and not a problem with benefits. It isnt possible to have both a benefit system that it fair and supports those unable to support themselves and a system that prevents abuse by the workshy, idle and feckless.

Most of the solutions offered here (by the SN Massive right wing think tank) are laughable: what would you do if your personal situation changed and you found yourself reliant on benefit?

The real problem is much deeper and more difficult to address. As expected, the labour party is failing, but they would I suppose, seeing as theyre in no small part responsible.....

Paul3446

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned this line from the story yet....

"In February government welfare adviser David Freud suggested less than a third of the 2.7 million people claiming the benefit were doing so legitimately."


This is a government adviser, not a Tory MP, saying that he thinks that over 1.8 million people are claiming benefits fraudulently.

Surely, whatever your politics, you can accept that this is outrageous and something needs to be done.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Not a difficult one really: the immigrants go where there are jobs, KNOWING that they will be given help with housing, heating, food, education, transport, council tax etc etc.

The long term unemployed are often from areas devastated by the last Tory government, like mining and steelworking areas, and don't have the luxury of being able to move to where the jobs are.

The lack of interest of successive governments in getting companies to invest anywhere but the south-east or the bigger population centres like Manchester, has led to people in many areas of the country becoming an underclass.

The French faced the same problem with everyone wanting to live, work and invest within 25 miles of Paris. No more. They offered incentives for companies to relocate, or start up elsewhere, and disincentives for companies to start up or stay near Paris, with the result that there are few poor regions of France.........unless you count the rural areas You can now have your paper headquarters near Paris, but your works needs to be elsewhere

Alcazar

scoobynutta555

Sorry but I think the "social problem" you mention is quite closely linked with benefits amongst other things. I find it quite strange you cannot forsee a benefit system thats fair and also prevents abuse. The solution I have put forward is neither laughable or, dare I say, massively right wing. If my circumstances changed I'd find another job or move to where I could get one. Perhaps using benefit as a bridgegap, it certainly wouldn't turn me into a career freeloader.

Again, no solutions from these posters criticising others Perhaps you're quite content with the 'tax free day' going further back into the year.

Also, some immigrants do claim benefits, but the vast majority are here to work and do work. There is a massive unrecorded class of immigrant who pay no taxes or use benefits/social housing. IIRC migrants from EC countries such as Poland cannot claim anything until they've been here a year.

Yes there are pockets of benefit towns decimated by Tory gov'ts, but hey, we're talking nearly 12 years here how long are people going to bang out Thatcher /Tories as an excuse it's getting boring FFS.

There are no excuses when someone who can't even speak English and was born in a tin hut can travel thousands of miles to gain employment here. Can someone tell me why someone born here has an excuse not to get a job or am I going to hear more posts laughing at and trashing sensible views?

chocolate_o_brian

iTrader: (22)

reading the latter part of this reply kinda makes sence to me. alcazr and i are from the same town and i would expect him to agree the town centre of our industrial pod has filled recently with various nationalities. im not gonna go into that, but as scunny is a very industrial town and has many factory and warehouse based employees, we have endulged in our fair share, and more, of immigrants.

now if you took me as an example, (and this is me maybe thinking out loud on a personal issue re. work) i would love to work say in a graphic design enviroment. a role like this would interest, motivate and satify my employment needs, on both a mental, and indeed physical basis. the mental being the afore mentioned reasons, and physically, as i would then not have any need to be looking for benefits while i look for work i probably cant physically acheive. so i totall;y agree with the incentives part. if round my and other industrial areas in particular there was a more diverse type of employment, people like myself who may be physically impared for one type of employment may indeed be better chanced to find something else more suitable.

unfortunatley as it stands currently, if i for instance wanted a design job which involved the things i enjoy doing (required qualifications aside), im looking at mhaving to relocate or commute extensivley.

i hope the above words show an insight to the frustrations living in a smaller town can throw up.

DCI Gene Hunt

Spoon, you clearly are the weakest link.....

DCI Gene Hunt

Since when did "I enjoy doing" become a work related factor?

chocolate_o_brian

iTrader: (22)

to be honest dci, currently i think i would enjoy any work im physically capable of doing

DCI Gene Hunt

Choccy, I wish you the luck of the Irish fella, but of late you haven't half started talking like you're physically unable to work! ..... to an almost disabled level... I don't mean to appear as rude (again) but is your RSI that bad that you are unable to work full stop?

chocolate_o_brian

iTrader: (22)

depends what type of work. if its administrative work or a physical job using repetitive manual handling, i cant do it. not so much as i dont want too, but i physically cant. its hard trying to correspond my "disability" through a car related forum, but it is seriously that bad. ive seen numerous medical professionals and they have all agreed the same. its sad, but honestly true.

anything else, i would love to try work wise. this is why ive asked so many questions on here re. how people get where they are etc, not just because i like to waffle

my main point being dci, round here its mainly admin jobs on min wage or factory/warehouse work, that pretty much rules out a lot for me unless i relocate or find someone willing to take a chance. i do not want to be a sponge on a benefit system for my working life, il get that part out now.