Brun

You're absolutley right - someone should have told LH that and he would still have his 10 points!!!

PeteBrant

But it wasn't normal circumstances was it - Raikonnen had very little traction in the straight (you see him "wobble" as he accelerates before hamilton overtakes him)

No one can say whether Hamilton would have gotten Kimi in the stright if he stayed behind him through the chicance. It's all supposition.

Brun

Normal circumstances = everyone kept to the circuit!
Don't get me wrong - i want the Lad to win the championship, but i'm trying to sit on the wall and i think my point is fair and near accurate!

PeteBrant

I just don't see how anyone can say "hamilton would not have gotten him in the straight" when he had caught up a 2 second lead in just a third of a lap and was clearly much faster at that point in time. Kimi was sliding all the way down the straight - Of course he is going to get caught.

Under normal circumstances, a 6kmh advantage (which Kimi) had would have seen him move away from Hamilton at a rapid pace. He lost the advantage through loss of traction.

Brun

That straight is very short and by the time lewis would have got on the throttle coming out of the last corner, Kimi would have put some space between them regardless of wheelspin - and Lewis would not have got close enough to overtake as effectively as he did!

PeteBrant

I really don't know what you base that on - How are you coming to the conclusion that Wheelspin is inconsequential given that it was slowing Raikonnen considerably during the last third of the lap? He was tip toesing round.

If Hamilton had been on Raikonnens gearbox through the Chicane, then he would have been up his **** for the start of the straight - I.e. have more track length to pass him on than he did, as he would not have had to let off to give the place back.

People seem to be disregarding a basic rule of physics - He could no possibly have a momentum advantage once he let Raikonnen past - Raikonnen should have been off in the distance.


The *only* reason he wasn't was because he could not get the power down, and Hamilton could; End result - Hamilton is penalised for Ferrari's lack of performance in the Wet on dry tyres.

Brun

You make your point well but i'm sticking to what i think

fast bloke

Is there a website that gives a rundown of all the stewart's enquiries and the results over the past 10 years? It seems like they penalise silver cars at every available opportunity, and let red cars off if there is the slightest excuse. It would be interesting to see all the decisions to see if this is real or merely perception. I can think of at least 7 times this year that Hamilton and Kovi have been penalised on the track, with one for Ferrari (Kimmi in Monaco for not having tyres fitted in time) - Doesn't even consider the strange decision to bring out the safety car in Canada to allow retrieval of a parked car when Hamilton was heading off into the distance

scooby L

We can argue about if Hamilton had in fact gained an advantage or not... but when it comes down to it.... Kimi crashed ie: did not finish..

Why are the FIA trying to level out an advantage between a car that finished and a car that didn't? Surely any advantage gained was lost when they both nearly collided with the Williams... and Lewis went off, and Kimi re-gained the lead? It was Kimi and only Kimi that over throttled and spun it into the wall.. Lewis was still behain the Williams at that point! not even pushing him! at that point any "advantage/dis-advantage should have been forgotten!

So why start an investigation.

Because Ferrari stand to gain?
Because the FIA still feel McLaren are due some penalties?
Because the Stewards want to earn some media spotlight?

Leslie

I think that has to be pure supposition on a corner like the Bus stop chicane. I still think Hamilton would have been close enough to outbrake him into La Source as he did in fact into the Bus Stop.

Les

Brun

Granted, but leading upto the Bus Stop is a long period of almost 200mph straight which lends it's self very well to providing an overtaking oppertunity - unlike the start / finish straight

FlightMan

What do you mean, unlike the start/finish straight?

He did him there didn't he?

Brun

......by cutting the chicane..............

scooby L

The reason for the dramatic reduction in the gap was because Kimi had lost more heat in his tyres (we assume) and could not break as late as Lewis.. giving Lewis an oportunity to dive outside him thus creating this penalty... So all things being equal, lewis knew Kimi would have the same issue at the end of the start/finish straight... which is why (after letting Kimi re-take the lead) he used his superior grip to out break him again... it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work it out.

PeteBrant

Which gave no advantage whatsoever.

And this is obviously the crux of the matter. It depends on whether you think that cutting the chincane and then giving back the lead gave an advantage to Hamilton.

And we can argue till we are blue in the face about it. But because it is all based on what we *think* would happen *if* he such and such, its pure speculation.

However, obviously if you think it did give an advantage, you are mental

scooby L

by taking the escape lane to avoid an accident (an accident Kimi was quite happy to push Lewis into BTW... what does that tell you about Kimi's performance at that point... on the rocks) he knew he was there, he knew lewis was commited, yet he still shut the door...Lewis did the right thing by avoiding an accident, did the right thing letting Kimi re-take the lead and did the right thing immediatly re-taking the lead before Kimi took them both off.

Brun

Don't wanna argue the point but if LH had taken the last corner correctly (the fact he was forced to cut - matters not) then he would not have been neck and neck going over the start finish line - is that not an advantage???

r32

He wasnt neck and neck, he was behind and travelling at 6kph slower than Kimmi as they crossed the line!

Plus Kimmi has said Hamilton allowed him past, he was there ............ and said he would support Hamilton.
But of course some of you know better. Doh

scooby L

but he did take the corner correctly, Kimi was suffereing from less grip than the McLaren, by breaking early he invited Lewis to take the outside line..it was a 50/50 call, the Stewards feel it was obviously 49/51 in Kimi's favour, but there was nothing wrong with the move... bold yes...worng? no.

PeteBrant

So what you are saying is that under normal circumstnaces, that straight is not long enought o pass on if you exit the chicane directly behind the leading car.

But somehow it *is* long enough to pass on it if you cross the start finish line together, and then slow down enough to let someone in front of you, and then over take them back.


Interesting.

Brun

He may have been travelling 6kph slower but he was still way closer than he would have been if he had taken the last corner.
Lewis's nose was max 2m behind kimi's over the line which is close enough to neck and neck at those speeds!
No - i don't know better, but i can form my own opinions from what i can see without sucking up to the Brit.
I would love to see people's opinions if the roles had been reversed between KR and LH!!!!!

Brun

I give up

scooby L

I think Brun (and the FIA) are trying to ignore the fact that the Ferrari was in desperate trouble at that point, the McLaren prob had 20% more grip and Lewis was using all of it. Unfair penalty... hope it gets overturned... not holding my breath though

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

And you say that I make assumptions!

Brun

I think The fia are a bunch of dicks fwiw!

scooby L

Please dont


If the dive down the outside of the chicane was illegal, then the FIA would have penalised him for that... they penalised him for using the run off lane to gain an advantage... not the same....

scooby L

seams only fair to join u...

The reason one F1 car goes quicker than another with the same same power...?

Any guesses?...

FlightMan

How exactly do you work that one out?

Over the line Kimi was 2/3 feet ahead. Futher down this, by your own admission, short straight, his car was completely ahead. Yet, Lewis still got past him, well before the corner.

Do you honestly think that had Lewis just followed KR around the last corner ( and we all know he couldn't do that becasue Kimi stuffed him off the circuit ) he wouldn't have been able to pass him?

Heck, even Kimi says LH did nothing wrong!

PeteBrant

You could *clearly* see Raikonnen struggle for grip - He car was doing a "Monaco" and slipping from side to side as he put the power down.

The reason Hamilton was able to a pass (let alone catch up a 2 second lead in a third of a lap) is absolutely cast iron, he had better grip.

I am staggered, really, that people are having trouble seeing this the case.

Brun

For the sake of my post it doesn't matter.

Right - put your hands up if you think LH could have been "almost" next to KR going over the line "if" he had taken the last corner correctly!!!!!!!!!