scooby L

The fact that Kimi went for a closer look at the wall suggests he was already at his limit...the Ferrari's just useless in cold/damp track conditions (while still on the premium tyre)... It's no secret, McLaren knew, Lewis knew, Kimi knew... Massa knows only too well..

Shame Kimi didn't wall it before Lewis caught him really.... but as you can see, Kimi was going backwards at that point.

PeteBrant

Given his lack of grip? Absolutley

Leslie

Seems pretty obvious to me, and it is interesting that Domenicali and Raikkonen say that Hamilton was not in the wrong and followed the rules exactly.

Les

StickyMicky

cant believe one of the busiest threads in NSR is actually about cars and not

custard creams
immigrants
houses
Gordon brown

etc etc

FlightMan

Err WRONG.

While he was almost next to KR when crossing the line, several hundred yards down the road he was COMPLETELY BEHIND HIM!!!!!

So, ipso facto, between crossing the line, and the point at which he fell behind KR, he was going slower than KR.

Do you understand that?

Then, once KR was completely ahead of LH, LH passed him.

scooby L

I'm really trying Brum..really I am

But you seam to be transfixed on the side by side on the line and closer after exiting the bus stop.

Lewis went slower out of the bus stop than Kimi, there is no slip stream effect/advantage because he's be going the same or quicker at that point is there was.

He was along side Kimi yes, and yes he would have not been if he'd not been run off the chicane by a certain ferrari drver just moments before.. but he lifted, maybe to gain more grip, maybe to let Kimi through..we will never know... but her lifted and kimi overtook him...end of possible penalty ..

so the side-by side argument holds no water!?

There was no slip streaming going on... there was just levels of grip available to the two drivers, Lewis had more, kimi knew it... why do yuo think Kimi left such an open door for Lewis at the end of the start/finish straight? because he needed to take the racing line to stay on the track! Lewis did not, he had spare grip...If Kimi had grip he'd have taken the defensive line and blocked an inside dive..

what's so hard to accept...

Brun

LH had to let him back in front
If Lewis had remained next to KR going into the 1st corner then he would have been on the outside line - do you understand that?

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Well to some Lewis is probably classed as an immigrant

Boro

iTrader: (1)

What you need here is a simulator type program, where you can enter all the data from both cars, speed, traction, acceleration, braking distance, etc and then run the program with OTHER scenario to see what would have happened.

You will never agree on this subject because at the moment its all opinion and i doubt very much much after all thats been said on SN, people wont change the opinion they have.

FWIW, i think hamilton has gained a very marginal advantage, but thats not to say if he hadnt, that he wouldnt have got passed anyway.

RA Dunk

anybody remember this?? i think youll find it looks quite familiar

YouTube - Pedro De La Rosa overtakes Michael Schumacher Hungary 2006

IIRC there was no penalty given either

scunnered

iTrader: (1)

To the people that are saying Lewis wouldn't have been close enough to pass had he not cut the chicane, I say, since he was right up his **** at the approach, had he stayed behind, he could easily have slipstreamed passed especially given that he was faster and loads more confident in the wet anyway. However, Lewis is a racer, and he tries to pass whenever he can. His karting experience will be playing a bit part here.
I think with a few more F1 seasons under his his belt, he would have been a little less impatient, and a bit more tactical. Shumacher was the master at tactical overtaking (when he wasn't cheating of course).

Boro

iTrader: (1)

Unbelievable if he got away with that without penalty.

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

Going back on I said originally, if you think about it, doesn't the dirty side become the grippy side when it starts to rain? That's what all the teams and driver's say, hense them taking 'wet' lines through the same corner. It is quite possible that the only reason lewis had more grip at that corner was because he joined the main straight on the 'grippy' side. Hem wouldn't have done so if he hadn't cut the chicane. That is a fact that you cannot ignore.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Why?

He either had to run across the rumble strip or plough into DLR or do what he did. DLR was not ahead of him and MS didn't gain a place by it and they were dicing in the next corner so no advantage gained.

Oh hang on this is Schumacher, of course he deserved a penalty

Actually if you were to substitue Scumacher for Lewis in Sundays GP this thread would look a whole lot different.

EddScott

Having watched the replay I dont get the neck and neck thing?

KR overtakes LH on the straight. LH then retakes him into the hairpin.

Wheres the neck and neck thing? They swapped sides so one would have to have allowed the other past.

You could argue that LH didn't give RK enough of a lead before having a go at him. But then is there a rule that says if you cut a corner, gain an advantage over another car, allow said car back past, give said car X seconds or X distance before having a proper go at him.

Boro

iTrader: (1)

Thats what id like to know, i would imagine the wording of the exact rule would say advantage, rather than gaining a place.

Devildog

Much more advantage to be gained from traction out of a slow corner than at the end of a straight in those conditions.

Traction is much more dependent upon set up (suspension and engine) and the driver than braking is.

Just witness Massa at Silverstone.

Pete is correct. You cannot have a speed disadvantage and a momentum advantage at the same point.

Anyway, its Monza next. I look forward to hald the field being given a drive through penalty for cutting the first chicane after the start.

RA Dunk

Bull****, DLR clearly had him going into the corner, if you cant admit o that then you clearly have red tinted specs on

Nimbus

On-board footage from both drivers..

Dailymotion - www.FormulaMag.com - Hamilton-Kimi, a video from Budhardt. F1, Belgium, 2008, Hamilton, Бельги�

Very interesting to watch.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

At no time was DLR ahead, but anyway no point debating it as neither of us is likely to change our opinion.

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

DLR was along side schumy, not ahead. And didn't they bang wheel if I remember correctly?

Devildog

FFs Chris, you are usually a sensible guy, but you are not half talking bollocks on this thread.

Hamilton could have taken any line he wished exiting the chicane, had he gone in with his nose behind Kimmi's gearbox and exited right behind him. Grippy "dirty" line or the racing line.

Kimi was screwed and he knew it. And he's gone on record as having said so.

The advantage Hamilton gained was that the Ferrari was pish poor in those conditions. As evidenced time and time again. The McLaren/Hamilton combination is simply a much better wet weather package, especially on the prime tyres.

Bottom line is that the stewards should not be able to influence the outcome of a race after the event unless the enquiry is pre-empted by an appeal by another team who stand to gain subject to the outcome of the appeal.

But that would be too simple, wouldn't it?

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

That footage does Lewis no favours. He isn't 'forced' to cut the chicane, he choses to rather than backing off. If lewis had actually lifted off the throttle fully after he rejoined, Kimi would have moved foward atleast a couple of car lengths. I believe this is exactly the point that the stewards are trying to make. If Lewis was forced off, or lost control, fine. But he wasn't.

With regards to Kimi, at what point did he 'chose' to go off the track?

RA Dunk

along side him yes but DLR had the racing line and schumey would have had to have gone wide giving DLR the advantage out of the corner

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

But DLR hit Schumy did he not? At 8 seconds? You can see the back of the Ferrari swing out as they touch.

Nimbus

Actually, I think you can. At a particular time, car "A" can be travelling at 100mph, while car "B" can be travelling at 90mph. But if "B" is accelerating at a higher rate than "A" he will have more momentum. So "A" has the advantage in speed, but will soon lose out to "B" who has the higher momentum.

Does this sound right or have I made a mistake?

Devildog

Indeed.

No question, Hamilton was easily going to make the chicane, but had to cut it (just) to avoid a collision.

He's then seen clearly watching the Ferrari come past.

Kimi then jinks right and appears to slow early for the chicane, hamilton appears to have no option but to pass him, to be honest.

IMO, the whole re-pass was down to Kimi apparently slowing early for the chicane and the McLaren simply being more stable in those conditions and with more traction.

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

Spot on and exactly what happened as I far I can tell from the footage. As I have said about 10 times now, the punishment was wrong, but the crime did take place, I don't what anybody says.

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

Are you blind? Are you telling me that he didn't quickly change direction and cut the chicane? Did he forget where the brake pedal was?

EddScott

IMO he had no place to go. He knew cutting a corner would lead to a penalty if he didn't allow KR back through so why do it without making the decision it was the only safe thing to do?

I think he thought he was past KR as the red car pretty much disappears but you then see the front end reappear. If LH had just slowed he would probably have had KR rear wheels riding over LH front wheels. Better to turn out altogether and then just allow him to pass after the corner.

Which is what he did. I don't have an issue for the reasons for cutting the chicane but I can see why LH effectively driving a ring around RK could lead to a penalty as LH doesn't give RK much of a chance.

Maybe next race they'll give Fisi a 3 lap head start.