corradoboy

Did he leave the track ? YES, because he was forced to do so in a way which may be against the regulations.

On rejoining the track did he gain an advantage ? YES, he was in front of the car which punted him off.

Did he then relinquish that advantage ? YES, he lifted allowing the other car to pass him, moving behind that car and then to the other side of it before reaching the next corner.

Was his entry to the next corner better than the other car ? YES, to the embarrassment of the other driver whom showed his displeasure by again trying to punt him off.

Was this the only such incident ? NO, half a lap later the other driver left the track for several hundred metres, rejoining at high speed which allowed him to pass due to another car causing an obstruction. So, it's OK to leave the track and gain an advantage if your car is red ! Much like it is OK to endanger the lives of others in the pit lane etc etc etc.

bioforger

iTrader: (1)

so everyone else is wrong because the majority of us are British? Ok then whatever

corradoboy

Please don't label me with racist or hypocritical insinuations ! If LH had made an @$$ of it I'd criticize him for it fairly. The key word there is FAIRLY !

Jamo

iTrader: (23)

what a terrible decision

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

OK fair comment and my point was badly worded. What I should have said was he lost less momentum than he would have done had he yielded in the corner and not cut the chicane.

Like I said this is the only reason I can see for the penalty and frankly you would have to work very hard to justify it. A bad decision and another bad day for F1.

D1CCY

Worse than the Eurovision song contest marking.

Such transparent bias must not be allowed to stand.

Sack the stewards for bringing the sport into disrepute.

bioforger

iTrader: (1)

If this is in response to me, then I was replying to Dracaro not you

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

OK here goes. In the late 90s Ecclestone made a rather large gaff by admitting he thought it would be a good thing for the sport if Ferrari after nearly 20 years won the championship again.

Ever since then there have been rumours and beliefs in the paddock that the FIA have been more lenient with Ferrari than with other teams. Whilst this is debatable it would not have come about if Ecclestone had kept his big mouth shut and it certainly isn't good form for someone in his postion to say something like that.

This and a few strange decisions (e.g. the inexpicable reversal of the Malaysia 1999 bargeboards controversy - the car failed scrutineering - end of or at least it should have been) have fuelled the whole Ferrari International Assistance 'joke' even if it is wearing a little thin now.

In recent years and after Ferrari winning the title 6 years in a row it was felt by all except of the most hardened conspiracy theorists that the whole pro Ferrari bias of the FIA was dying as even they no longer wanted them to keep winning every year as it as bad for the sport.

Then came Spygate where McLaren were found guilty of possessing and attempting to use technical data from Ferrari. They were given a huge penalty, but it is widely thought that Max Mosley felt the penalty should have been even more harsh and that Ron Deniis should have stepped down from McLaren.

Then of course we had the whole **** orgy allegations etc. etc.

What is left is an immense amount of bad blood between Mosley and some members of McLaren which is no doubt partly why when McLaren get penalised everyone tends to cry foul.

Personally I think McLaren do seem to be treated unfairly at the moment but this has more to do with Mosley's gripes about them than any FIA love affair with Ferrari. I don't think today it would have mattered if it had been Massa, Heidfeld or Alonso in second place as Hamilton would have been stripped of his win regardless.

I also thinkthat had it been a BMW or Renault leading in Valencia and they had been released too early from the pit the fine would have been the same.

Basically McLaren are the whipping boys of F1 right now and on top of that the FIA have never imposed penalties in anything like a consistent manner.

One thing is for sure, what happened today is not what F1 needs. Very sad

SWRTWannabe

I can see where Dracoro is coming from. Lewis did gain an advantage, and although he did reinquish the place that he gained, it's not like he did it immediately - he did it intelligently by making sure he was well set up to retake the place. I think it's a case of him sticking to the letter of the law, if not necessarily the spirit - but at the end of the day I think he stuck to the rules and shouldn't be penalised. After all, it's not the first time we've seen some clever interpretations of the rules is it (Schumaker's stop go penalty that was mentioned earlier).

That said, if the FIA are really being sticklers for the rules, when the coverage showed the start of the formation lap, the in car view from Hamilton's car clearly showed he was overtaken by a Ferrari (Massa?), which is against the rules, unless there was a good reason, like an off, mechanical failure etc. From what I saw, there didn't seem to be any issues with Lewis's start, so to me that wasn't a legal move and should incur the same penalty. Picky, I know, but rules are rules

bioforger

iTrader: (1)

They're allowed to take the lead from the pole sitter on the warmup lap, as long as they relenquish that 'lead' immediately which Massa did. But you're right if he hadn't nothing would of been done

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

That rule was abolished some years ago now.

Dracoro

Of course not. However there is a national history (within all nations) of letting support for their own nationality cloud their rationality. Nowhere is this more obvious than in football! goes for clubs as well as nations.

Do you HONESTLY think if the roles were reversed (and it was M.Shumacher in Hamiltons position) that this thread would have the same opinions?

I like to look at each incidence in isolation without prejudice (which I have none as I don't support anyone in F1 and certainly not the drivers/manufacturers in question).

Many times the FIA have got things wrong as well as right, in this case they got the decision right. As for the punishment, well that's for debate, problem is it was that late in the race, they couldn't give a stop/go/pit penalty. I don't think a time penalty is correct either as many cars slow/speed up in the last lap or two anyway who maybe wouldn't do if there was an extra place to gain. I think the better penalty would be dropping position (1,2,3,4, whatever) or a points reduction (again of X amount deemed appropriate).

corradoboy

Belgium Grand Prix - Lewis Hamilton was unfairly stripped of his win Petition

bioforger

iTrader: (1)

Well you are 1 of 2 ppl in two threads who has this opinion, which I still believe is way off the mark And you seem to be ignoring alot of the facts that happened in the 'incident'.

FlightMan

Online petition here:

Sign the Belgium Grand Prix - Lewis Hamilton was unfairly stripped of his win Petition

Sorry Corradoboy, didn't see your post.

Dracoro

Such as?

One fact that is clear that no-one has a good arguement against is that if Hamilton had NOT taken the escape route, he would not have been able to pass Raikonnen on the pit straight.

Daryl

Isn't it a bit arrogant to think that you're the only one on this thread capable of doing that?

The way I see it is that Hamilton overtook Raikkonen when it started raining simply because he was faster - to arbitrarily decide that he did it illegally brings F1 into (more) disrepute in the minds of millions of viewers.

FlightMan

OK, I'll bite.

If he had had not taken to the escape road, after being forced to take it by Raikonnen pushing him off the circuit, he'd have hit the curb, ( the raised green concrete mound Brundle actually featured before the race ) and would have launched himself into the side of the Ferrari.

So, what do you think Lewis should have done?

Dracoro

Maybe, doesn't make someone me wrong though.

You can be unbiased and also disagree with the FIA decision. However, when people are saying that it's all to do with the FIA favouring Ferrari then it's clear they're not making a clear rational judgement.

Regardless, the decision has to be backed up and proved (which the FIA have done and if you actually read my points you'd see too , however the punishment IMO is up for debate (and may or may not be due to favouritism). If it were a pro-ferrari decision, why was he only docked a few points still leaving him leading the championship? I think he would have lost more than 2 positions if there were time for a stop/go/pit penalty. i.e. the punishment could have been much worse.

On another point, I take it all those saying "pah, lost respect for F1, not watching it anymore" are the same who say they'll never watch top gear/5th gear again but still watch it every week and still post about it

Personally I still enjoy watching F1, not as exciting as yesteryear maybe (isn't everything though), however it's till fun enough. When I stop enjoying it, I'll stop watching it. I won't keep watching and moan all the time.

As I said earlier, FIA have made some very bad decisions over the years, this isn't (imo blah blah blah) ISN'T one of them.

D6ale

iTrader: (1)

Farce,

Lewis should hang up his helmet until they lift this penalty, the FIA need him more than he needs them

stevie boy

PB is spot on

LH backed off to let KR past, the point at when KR comes past, no matter how anyone dress's it up he is traveling faster = FACT, which means he has more momentum than LH.

completly unjust, he did nothing wrong = also FACT!!

they should be embarassed to accept the win.



stevie

Dracoro

That's up to him. There's many things he could have done.
Stopped (or slowed right down)
Not got into that position in the 1st place (or do even better and got ahead!).
Eased off straight away.
Taken his chances and tried to force the ferrari away.
Hit the kerb.
etc.

As I said earlier, what if it were a gravel trap instead of tarmac and he ended up grounded, it would have been his fault (after all Raikonnen got ahead and kept the inside line coming into the corner and kept Hamilton at bay without making contact etc.).

ScoobyWon't

Funnily enough Max received a large envelope just after the race and has now just ordered a new yacht with a special dungeon room painted in scarlet (sponsors colours) and decorated with swastikas.

Looks like Lewis will have to do it the hard way. It's Max getting pay-back for Mosleygate.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Stevie, I think you missed the point of what I was saying. We know KR is travelling faster, I am simply saying that MAYBE the differential would have been even greater if Lewis hadn't cut the chicane.

Please remember I am only playing devil's advocate here and trying to fathom out on what grounds the stewards have come up with their decision.

I think it extremely tenuous at best.

FlightMan

Sorry" what if " and " force the Ferrari away ".

With what, his photon torpedos?

bioforger

iTrader: (1)

I'll rebite again, the fact is LH had passed KR and was ahead of him before he had to take avoiding action from KR smacking into him. 2nd why do u keep mentioning IF there was a gravel trap? there isn't one there, it's a mickey mouse chicane ffs. Therefore your 'point' is irrelevant.

Markus

I have to say I'm not totally shocked by this. I did think when Lewis took the lead by going off track "slow down matey, let Kimi pass you" for the express reason that we all know exactly what would happen if there was any advantage seen to be gained. Lewis did slow, and let Kimi very briefly regain the lead, and then take him at the next corner, which I see as fair, but perhaps he should have waited for the following corner. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, as if he'd waited a tad longer, then he'd have gained first when Kimi crashed.

If Kimi had not crashed then I'd be a little more accepting towards the penalty, as Kimi would have finished in second place, however, this wasn't the case and Kimi did go out, allowing Lewis to take the win. It's not as if Lewis made Kimi crash.

I would dearly loved to have seen the positions reversed and seen if the the penalty would have been given to Ferrari, something tells me that it would not have happened without McLaren protesting it.

If it had been another team do I think McLaren would have been penalized? Truthfully, I'm not sure, part of me would like to think that it was issued regardless of the teams involved, but I'm too old and cynical to really think that

Dracoro

Clipping his back wheel Worked for Kovaleinnen at the same corner earlier in race

stiscooby

"IF" there was a gravel trap there he could have kept his speed up and scuttled across it, re-joining on the start/finish straight. Probably wouldn't have been as close to KR as he was but regardless what happened there KR ended up in the wall about a minute later down the road so what difference does it make??

unclebuck

"penalized?"

That's not a proper word.... ugly spelling..... ugh...