Petition against Hamiltons penalty!
11 September 2008, 04:02 PM
#151
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And yet the evidence suggest otherwise
He was further behind Kimi after the corner than he was going in (completely behind, in fact) and he was traveling 6 kph slower at the same point.
It is contrary to the laws of physics that he was carrying more momentim at the point in time when he was completely behind Kimi having alowed him to retake the position.
It is therefore beyond any reasonable doubt that he did not fully give back any "advantage" gained by cutting the corner to avoid a collision.
Why is that so hard to understand?
But he still gained an advantage by cutting in the first place and did not fully give back the place/advantages gained in the process.
It is contrary to the laws of physics that he was carrying more momentim at the point in time when he was completely behind Kimi having alowed him to retake the position.
It is therefore beyond any reasonable doubt that he did not fully give back any "advantage" gained by cutting the corner to avoid a collision.
Why is that so hard to understand?
11 September 2008, 04:15 PM
#152
Indeed, it really is unbelievable that people like purvis and urban can keep banging on about momentum, even though telemetry has shown that Kimi was 6kmh quicker over the s/f line.
Could these people please explain how LH could have had extra momentum even though he was going slower?
This is reminding me of that Corsa bloke that laid his rear seats flat to get a better centre of gravity and "lower" weight
Lewis made Kimi look like an absolute amateur that last 3 laps, regardless of whether people want to blame KR's "bad tools"!!
Could these people please explain how LH could have had extra momentum even though he was going slower?
This is reminding me of that Corsa bloke that laid his rear seats flat to get a better centre of gravity and "lower" weight
Lewis made Kimi look like an absolute amateur that last 3 laps, regardless of whether people want to blame KR's "bad tools"!!
If he hadn't cut the corner, then he would have been much further back than he was - hence advantage gained.
He did not give THAT advantage back.
Men - its got **** all to do with momentum and him giving the place back.
If he hadn't cut the corner there would not be a place to give back.
11 September 2008, 04:15 PM
#153
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All you can see on the video is Kimi out accelerating Lewis. There wasn't a break in acceleration from Lewis's car.
11 September 2008, 04:22 PM
#154
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Your all missing the most BASIC point.
If he hadn't cut the corner, then he would have been much further back than he was - hence advantage gained.
He did not give THAT advantage back.
Men - its got **** all to do with momentum and him giving the place back.
If he hadn't cut the corner there would not be a place to give back.
If he hadn't cut the corner, then he would have been much further back than he was - hence advantage gained.
He did not give THAT advantage back.
Men - its got **** all to do with momentum and him giving the place back.
If he hadn't cut the corner there would not be a place to give back.
Last edited by scooby L; 11 September 2008 at 04:24 PM.
11 September 2008, 04:23 PM
#155
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He did give the place back. He was behind, and outbraked Kimi into the end of the straight, (Kimi braked very early). Therefore, no rules broken and no penalty deserved.
If he hadn't cut the corner there would not be a place to give back.
11 September 2008, 04:34 PM
#156
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Even if that was the case, the point you are plainly missing is that he didn't break any rules. All the rulebook says is that he has to give the place back. It doesn't mention anything about advantages, (after all how could you possibly measure it).
He did give the place back. He was behind, and outbraked Kimi into the end of the straight, (Kimi braked very early). Therefore, no rules broken and no penalty deserved.
Sigh - it's called racing. Something we don't see enough of these days. It's a shame the setwards can dish out penalties like this, without even looking at any technical data from the cars...
He did give the place back. He was behind, and outbraked Kimi into the end of the straight, (Kimi braked very early). Therefore, no rules broken and no penalty deserved.
Sigh - it's called racing. Something we don't see enough of these days. It's a shame the setwards can dish out penalties like this, without even looking at any technical data from the cars...
Let's take the next race as an example. One car is following another down the main straight, at full pelt, approx 100m apart.
The first corner is a very tight chicane. The following car brakes way too late , can't take the corner because the car infront has the line (as he is entitled to have). He doesn't want to back off and 'tippy toe' round and so cuts the the chicane and gains a place. He then backs off to 1 cm behind the car he just over-took illegally.
Are you saying this is fair?
Last edited by Gear Head; 11 September 2008 at 04:38 PM.
11 September 2008, 04:37 PM
#157
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Your all missing the most BASIC point.
If he hadn't cut the corner, then he would have been much further back than he was - hence advantage gained.
He did not give THAT advantage back.
Men - its got **** all to do with momentum and him giving the place back.
If he hadn't cut the corner there would not be a place to give back.
If he hadn't cut the corner, then he would have been much further back than he was - hence advantage gained.
He did not give THAT advantage back.
Men - its got **** all to do with momentum and him giving the place back.
If he hadn't cut the corner there would not be a place to give back.
Sorry but that's bollocks, he was up Kimi's gearbox down the straight and into the bus stop, even if he followed KR through the chicane he would still have been as close and IMO would have had him into the first bend.
The BASIC facts are that Kimi (or the Ferrari's just for Purvis
), and Massa as well were crap when it started to rain and were humiliated by Lewis. 
11 September 2008, 04:41 PM
#158
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You're assuming he breaked too late Chris
He breaked bang on... Kimi braked early.. but then defended the line better than Lewis felt he could (at that point)...
I'm not getting dragged off the main point AGAIN...
The main point is
Do you think it's FAIR to penalised a driver for a possible advantage he gained, when the only other person effected from this advantage drove himself off the track only 40 seconds later?
Yes or no
He breaked bang on... Kimi braked early.. but then defended the line better than Lewis felt he could (at that point)...
I'm not getting dragged off the main point AGAIN...
The main point is
Do you think it's FAIR to penalised a driver for a possible advantage he gained, when the only other person effected from this advantage drove himself off the track only 40 seconds later?
Yes or no
11 September 2008, 04:42 PM
#159
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11 September 2008, 04:44 PM
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And racing isn't about cutting corners!
Let's take the next race as an example. One car is following another down the main straight, at full pelt, approx 100m apart.
The first corner is a very tight chicane. The following car brakes way too late , can't take the corner because the car infront has the line (as he is entitled to have). He doesn't want to back off and 'tippy toe' round and so cuts the the chicane and gains a place. He then backs off to 1 cm behind the car he just over-took illegally.
Are you saying this is fair?
Let's take the next race as an example. One car is following another down the main straight, at full pelt, approx 100m apart.
The first corner is a very tight chicane. The following car brakes way too late , can't take the corner because the car infront has the line (as he is entitled to have). He doesn't want to back off and 'tippy toe' round and so cuts the the chicane and gains a place. He then backs off to 1 cm behind the car he just over-took illegally.
Are you saying this is fair?
Why don't you rethink your example and compare like with like, and then ask the question again.
11 September 2008, 04:45 PM
#161
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How do you define "much further back"?
Sorry but that's bollocks, he was up Kimi's gearbox down the straight and into the bus stop, even if he followed KR through the chicane he would still have been as close and IMO would have had him into the first bend.
The BASIC facts are that Kimi (or the Ferrari's just for Purvis), and Massa as well were crap when it started to rain and were humiliated by Lewis.
Sorry but that's bollocks, he was up Kimi's gearbox down the straight and into the bus stop, even if he followed KR through the chicane he would still have been as close and IMO would have had him into the first bend.
The BASIC facts are that Kimi (or the Ferrari's just for Purvis
), and Massa as well were crap when it started to rain and were humiliated by Lewis. I, and many others, prefer a clean race rather than what happened at Spa. I wish that Hamilton had just waited 1 mile or so to make the move on Kimi. He was stupid to think that the move would have worked at that corner. Reducing amounts of grip, a slow slowing Ferrari that was being driven by someone who is not known for 'opening the door'. How many others tried and failed at the very same spot? His team mate for one.
11 September 2008, 04:46 PM
#162
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But he didn't cut the corner. Kimi braked very early for the chicane, Hamilton tried an overtake that didn't work. To avoid a collision he took to the escape road, then held back and let Kimi past again.
If you want to be picky, how about the overtake Kimi did on Lewis. Using the super grippy tarmac run off area to gain an advantage. Nobody has said anything about that either...
Yes. He was closer before the chicane than after it, even with the "short cut". It happens all the time in racing, (ever watched a GP2 race?). There's nothing to stop Kimi doing the same thing to Lewis the next lap. Seems you'll only be happy if nobody ever overtakes (or attempts to overtake) in F1.
Schumacher did this sort of stuff all the time. In fact I remember him deliberately ramming people, getting away with it, and winning a championship because of it
If you want to be picky, how about the overtake Kimi did on Lewis. Using the super grippy tarmac run off area to gain an advantage. Nobody has said anything about that either...
The first corner is a very tight chicane. The following car brakes way too late , can't take the corner because the car infront has the line (as he is entitled to have). He doesn't want to back off and 'tippy toe' round and so cuts the the chicane and gains a place. He then backs off to 1 cm behind the car he just over-took illegally. Are you saying this is fair?
Schumacher did this sort of stuff all the time. In fact I remember him deliberately ramming people, getting away with it, and winning a championship because of it
11 September 2008, 04:51 PM
#163
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Personally, although I appresciate his skill, I don't like Lewis much and would much prefer Mass to win the championship. Having said that, I think the stewards decision was bad, and potentially very damaging for F1 as a sport.
How many others tried and failed at the very same spot? His team mate for one.
. If that was the case, we'd never have any overtaking, anywhere.
11 September 2008, 04:51 PM
#164
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But he didn't cut the corner. Kimi braked very early for the chicane, Hamilton tried an overtake that didn't work. To avoid a collision he took to the escape road, then held back and let Kimi past again.
If you want to be picky, how about the overtake Kimi did on Lewis. Using the super grippy tarmac run off area to gain an advantage. Nobody has said anything about that either...
Yes. He was closer before the chicane than after it, even with the "short cut". It happens all the time in racing, (ever watched a GP2 race?). There's nothing to stop Kimi doing the same thing to Lewis the next lap. Seems you'll only be happy if nobody ever overtakes (or attempts to overtake) in F1.
Schumacher did this sort of stuff all the time. In fact I remember him deliberately ramming people, getting away with it, and winning a championship because of it
If you want to be picky, how about the overtake Kimi did on Lewis. Using the super grippy tarmac run off area to gain an advantage. Nobody has said anything about that either...
Yes. He was closer before the chicane than after it, even with the "short cut". It happens all the time in racing, (ever watched a GP2 race?). There's nothing to stop Kimi doing the same thing to Lewis the next lap. Seems you'll only be happy if nobody ever overtakes (or attempts to overtake) in F1.
Schumacher did this sort of stuff all the time. In fact I remember him deliberately ramming people, getting away with it, and winning a championship because of it
11 September 2008, 04:52 PM
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11 September 2008, 04:53 PM
#166
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Problem with what? Lewis or Schumacher?
The point is Ferrari drivers always seem to get away with it, and Mclaren drivers only have to wiggle a little finger in the wrong direction to get a penalty. At least, that's the perception being given by the FIA.
The point is Ferrari drivers always seem to get away with it, and Mclaren drivers only have to wiggle a little finger in the wrong direction to get a penalty. At least, that's the perception being given by the FIA.
11 September 2008, 05:55 PM
#168
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13 September 2008, 10:58 AM
#170
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He was no angel, but this sort of rubbish is written over and over and becomes folklore when it just isn't true.
13 September 2008, 11:01 AM
#171
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I actually don't think that is even in the rules Les. I think it has arisen by a sort of gentleman's agreement. Even the drivers asked for clarification on Thursday at Monza.
13 September 2008, 12:18 PM
#172
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OK check this out:
FIA clarifies overtaking rule
I now think that Hamilton stands a very good chance of having his apeeal upheld. The rule has required clarification and Charlie Whiting on being questioned at the time said it was OK which now under the clarified rule is wrong - I think Hamilton stands a chance here.
FIA clarifies overtaking rule
I now think that Hamilton stands a very good chance of having his apeeal upheld. The rule has required clarification and Charlie Whiting on being questioned at the time said it was OK which now under the clarified rule is wrong - I think Hamilton stands a chance here.
13 September 2008, 05:32 PM
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McLaren.
Even the great Fangio had to "steal" a team mates car in one race to esure he got points towards the title.
If anything we should start a petition against McLaren's tactics when it comes to Hamilton, they've cost him in the past and they've cost him again today.
14 September 2008, 04:35 PM
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14 September 2008, 09:48 PM
#179
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He also cut a chicane to take a place, but then so did everyone today, and interestingly Massa had to give his place back after cutting the chicane, dont think anyone else did
15 September 2008, 08:23 AM
#180
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A six page thread about a single incident weeks ago is still running?
Formula One is a load of cr@p and this 'debate' highlights why.
More time is spent talking and whining about rules, politics, scandal and appeals than the racing for the simple reason that the on track action is boring in the extreme.
Turn this crap off, stop giving power and money to the rich old dwarf and the guy who pays women for sex and watch motoGP instead.
Formula One is a load of cr@p and this 'debate' highlights why.
More time is spent talking and whining about rules, politics, scandal and appeals than the racing for the simple reason that the on track action is boring in the extreme.
Turn this crap off, stop giving power and money to the rich old dwarf and the guy who pays women for sex and watch motoGP instead.